Franco's Spain: Arsenal against Communism

Say Spain produced weapons, could anybody afford them back then? I mean, the crowd that can't trade with the US or Soviet that sit on piles of WWII surplus.

Another interesting thein about Franco's Spain is that it was the destination for a lot of interesting refugees like the Algerian Frenchmen who failed their coup as well as a lot of others.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
Say Spain produced weapons, could anybody afford them back then? I mean, the crowd that can't trade with the US or Soviet that sit on piles of WWII surplus.

In the early to late 50s and on into the 60s, you've got tons of buyers. Remember that no country in Europe was buying from just one other nation after they got back on their feet. Yeah, Israel may have bought Mirages from France, but it still got it's tanks from Britain and America. And alot of it depends on what the Spanish are producing. Actual weapons aren't the only thing to produce. Think of a tank, and all the parts it's made of. Any of those parts can break, and after WWII alot of those parts stopped getting made.

But many countries kept using those tanks. American Shermans, Chaffees, Jacksons, British Cromwells, Comets, Centurions, etc., were all used decades after WWII: Israeli M-55 Super Shermans made their final bow in 1973, Serbian Jackson tank destroyers were in use in the 90s, and South Africa still uses the Centurion.
These tanks all need spare parts and upgrades. And the fact is, it's not hard to make a sprocket or something for a large machine like a tank. It's pretty similar, I'd think, to making axles and such for combines and tractors. That's what I do for a living now, and it's not rocket science. On top of actual weapons, Spain could make a lot of money just turning out what are called "service parts" for older Allied tank models from the Second World War that are then being used in other armies around the world.
So...say you're a South African ARMSCOR buyer, and your Comet fleet is great except the tank treads are wearing, as well as the transmissions. Along comes a Spanish representative who's willing to do alot more business with you (alot friendlier) than anyone else. And he can offer you something that no one else can: a new transmission, and new treads.

This gets them in good with their prospective buyers: countries without a lot of money to spend on topshelf military merchandise but who are still looking for a good bang for their buck.

So the Spanish could go to South Africa, say, and make them an offer that includes everything from tank transmissions to AAA guns. Sure, it's not hi-tech stuff, but for where they're selling this stuff to it doesn't need to be.
If you're selling to apartheid South Africa, pre-war South Korea, or any number of other places, then you don't need to offer hi-tech stuff.
 

The Vulture

Banned
The idea ITTL is that Spanish products will be cheap and low-tech, but serviceable and more than adequate for buyers like Rhee, Duvalier, Trujillo or Batista.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
The idea ITTL is that Spanish products will be cheap and low-tech, but serviceable and more than adequate for buyers like Rhee, Duvalier, Trujillo or Batista.

Good man. That's the way to think of this. Post-WWII, alot of governments were broke, especially Britain. One thing to think about is the fact that the British really wanted to offload alot of their stuff to get hard currency. And in the whirl of post-war Germany, alot of designs could go missing.

All you need is a savvy Spaniard realizing that the smart thing isn't buying a tank, it's buying the tank's patent. Sure, the engine inside and the gun will be a different story, but the Spanish already have the German 88 and 75 that they can modify and use. If they need a new engine, then they can always just hire an ex-Nazi who doesn't have a job to design them a new one.

The POD here isn't so much an increased Spanish militancy, as they're not invading anything. It's an increased Spanish commercialism. And that's what seems interesting to me.
 

The Vulture

Banned
Basically, a policy of less autarky and more commercialism, with a Spanish economy based on international trade designed to support Spanish ideas of anti-Communism.

Thus, the "democratic" power bloc of the Cold War is broken into two ideological parts: a far-right one, led nominally by Spain; and a more liberal one, led by the United States and Britain.
 
I'd like to point out to the folks who are saying this is an illogical foreign policy to sell to these folks that France did it for years. In the face of Communism, NATO was willing to look the other way while France sold Mirages to South Africa and Israel, tank guns to the Jewish State, AMX-30 tanks and Mirage F1 & Super Entendard fighters to Iraq, and Gazelle attack helicopters to Yugoslavia and China.
If France can do sell actual hi-tech equipment, then I'm willing to bet that NATO would be willing to look the other way when Spain starts selling lower end stuff.

But France got into this business 15-20 years after WWII, when the world market was looking for high tech weapons. For Spain to break into the arms market in the late 40s/early 50s would be a different story. First of all the Allies had a policy of destroying Axis equipment. There aren't a lot of tanks and aircraft for anyone to refurbish. The only countries selling German heavy equipment were those that were making their own, especially Czechoslovakia. The Czechs weren't exactly an arsenal of the world either, because they couldn't compete against the US and USSR when the were giving tanks away.

Spain could sell German small arms, but I don't see them getting rich of that. South Korea's main problem was that it had no money. They could never buy enough to really make a difference. That's a common problem. Too many people who needed weapons couldn't afford it. Few countries had money in the aftermath of the war.

Spain would have to wait a decade or more for the demand to pick up and sell weapons of its own design. It was somewhat successful with the CETME rifle for example. That's the business model they could use. I say they might have invested more into their aircraft industry. Grab Kurt Tank before the Argentines do.
 
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MacCaulay

Banned
Basically, a policy of less autarky and more commercialism, with a Spanish economy based on international trade designed to support Spanish ideas of anti-Communism.

Thus, the "democratic" power bloc of the Cold War is broken into two ideological parts: a far-right one, led nominally by Spain; and a more liberal one, led by the United States and Britain.

Well, you wouldn't even need this to be any sort of ideology. This is just self-interest. If all the Spanish are doing is openning up their economy to as much export to (non-Communist) countries as they can, then we can take France as an example.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
But France got into this business 15-20 years after WWII, when the world market was looking for high tech weapons. For Spain to break into the arms market in the late 40s/early 50s would be a different story. First of all the Allies had a policy of destroying Axis equipment. There aren't a lot of tanks and aircraft for anyone to refurbish. The only countries selling German heavy equipment were those that were making their own, especially Czechoslovakia. The Czechs weren't exactly an arsenal of the world either, because they couldn't compete against the US and USSR when the were giving tanks away.

Actually, France was well into the market by the early 50s. Israeli armour in the Sinai campaign in 1956 included a fair amount of AMX-13 light tanks and a small amount of refitted M-51 Super Shermans with French guns.

As for the German weapons, the Spanish were producing their own 88s and 75s after the Civil War ended.

Spain could sell German small arms, but I don't see them getting rich of that. South Korea's main problem was that it had no money. They could never buy enough to really make a difference. That's a common problem. Too many people who needed weapons couldn't afford it.

Spain would have to wait a decade or more for the demand to pick up and sell weapons of its own design. It was somewhat successful with the CETME rifle for example. That's the business model they could use.

I think what you're hung up on here is the "getting rich" part. We're not talking about selling to people with oodles of cash here. We're talking about Dollar General kinds of cash.


Countries like Turkey, Israel, and Yugoslavia actually did end up buying large amounts of German small arms. The Karabiner 98 behind me in my room right now is former Yugoslav, rebored to a 7.62 round. That's something the Spanish can do relatively cheaply. They can also look into purchasing the patents or just outright copying the designs for any number of weapons that are out there in the world.

The fact is, there's always an openning on the bottom rung where some government will pay a little bit less. And Spain can fill that easily.
 
The market we're confined to is countries facing a Communist threat. Most of these were dirt poor. If they had money to begin with their social services would be better and the threat of Communism would be much less. What these countries wanted was free weapons.

Yugoslavia and Turkey were economically better off but were also wooed by the West and got discounted arms deals. Yugoslavia made their own Mausers pre-war so I don't see why they would import in significant numbers.

Spain might sell weapons to the Arabs or some such. But being an arsenal against Communism would be bad business until much later when there's money to be made. Until then, it would be much more profitable selling olives or typewriters.
 
Would they have to sell to just states threatened by Communism though? They can become a great source of arms for less then nice anti-communist regimes like South Africa while still making most of the money off of selling things to states not even involved in the Cold War. Even selling to Arab countries wouldn't be too hard if we're talking 1950s-Egypt was still using mostly British, American or Axis surplus equitment in the Suez War.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
Yugoslavia and Turkey were economically better off but were also wooed by the West and got discounted arms deals. Yugoslavia made their own Mausers pre-war so I don't see why they would import in significant numbers.

I was just using them as an example of the fact that there was a market out there if people would offer them.

tallwingedgoat said:
Spain might sell weapons to the Arabs or some such. But being an arsenal against Communism would be bad business until much later when there's money to be made. Until then, it would be much more profitable selling olives or typewriters.

Would they have to sell to just states threatened by Communism though? They can become a great source of arms for less then nice anti-communist regimes like South Africa while still making most of the money off of selling things to states not even involved in the Cold War. Even selling to Arab countries wouldn't be too hard if we're talking 1950s-Egypt was still using mostly British, American or Axis surplus equitment in the Suez War.

Exactly. These are good points. I had a brainstorm a while ago about them making cash after the war by selling construction equipment in post-war Europe. Nothing huge, just your usual smaller endloaders and backhoes. Selling small arms and acquiring arms patents between 1945-1948 and selling this kind of stuff (which isn't that taxing to make but was very much needed) could be a good source of income that both ramps up their economy and doesn't require a huge chancy investment: sure, with a tank they're not 100 percent sure somone's going to buy it. If they make a tractor on the same line they're making that tank, then they can be reasonably sure at least half of those products are going to sell.

A Spanish tractor and construction equipment company, paired with small arms and artillery sales, could bring in the bedrock cash that allows them to pick up and market patented weapons from the war: Comets, etc.
 
I had a brainstorm a while ago about them making cash after the war by selling construction equipment in post-war Europe. Nothing huge, just your usual smaller endloaders and backhoes.
This reminds me, the JCB backhoe loader was invented in 1953, a combination of loader and backhoe.
 
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