Franco-Prussian War II

Titus_Pullo

Banned
What happened:
The Prussian victory in the Franco-Prussian War of 1870-71 was
startling in its rapidity to most of Europe and, coming upon the
heels of the even quicker victory over Austria in 1866, made Berlin
the center of military science. Replacing France as the preeminent
martial power in Europe. Prussia appeared to be waging war in an
entirely new way, one more in tune with the Industrial Revolution
and the modern state. The general staff system was soon copied by
other powers, Jomini was out and Von Clausewitz was in (West Point
added German to the curriculum), and even fashion went Prussian
(kepis were replaced by spiked helmets). The French never forgot their defeat in 1870-71 and over the decades nursed an unquenchable thirst for revenge which was a contributing factor to the First Word War.

What could have happened:

At the time of the Boulanger Crisis, I believe had the Germans launched the preemptive war Waldersee favored should Boulanger actually come to power, I think the French would have won. There was a window of time in the 1880s when France had the better army. So let's set the Second
Franco-Prussian War in 1889. The ironic element in the story of Boulanger, who provided the most serious internal threat to the Third Republic in its history, is that he was promoted Minister of War on the basis that he was about the only republican general to be found in the French army; most of
the others were monarchists. His subsequent reforms of the French
army caused that window of opportunity when France had the better
army in the 1880s and any war between France and Prussia within this
time period meant that the mistakes of the 1870-71 war would not
have been repeated. Boulanger's appeal was fairly broad, though, as
he came to embody French hopes for a successful war of revenge
against Germany (in an extraordinary move, Bismarck even named him
in a speech as the single greatest obstacle to amiable Franco-German
relations. Boulangism rose at exactly the same time there was a
serious deterioration in Russo-German relations. The fear was that a
successful coup by Boulanger would restore the monarchy in France;
while the Tsar would not cut a deal with republican France, he would
not have such an aversion to monarchial France (thus Waldersee's
call for a preemptive war against France in case of a successful
coup by Boulanger). Even French republicans seemed inclined to
accept a constitutional monarchy, with Boulanger as the strongman.
Of course, this all fell apart when Boulanger turned out to have
feet of clay. Had he successfully seized the government, it is hard
to see how Boulanger could have avoided a confrontation with
Germany. Let's have Boulanger leading a sucessful revolt in
April 1889. In OTL (Our Timeline) Boulanger failed to seize the opportunity and fled the country after the French government issued a warrant for his arrest on the charge of reasonous activities. In this timeline a
constitutional monarchy is established with Boulanger as the real
power behind the monarchy. Before the Germans could even
attack, Boulanger launches a preemtive strike and immediately seizes
Alsace-Lorraine, and pushes the Germans back who were caught
completely unprepared, to their pre-1871 border. A relief force
of 100,000 Germans are defeated at the Second Battle of Sedan and
Waldersee himself is captured. By May of 1889 the French cross the border into Germany capturing the Rhineland and Westphalia. The French offensive encounters stiffer resistance as they try to cross the Rhine and are repelled back to the Rhineland. The war settles down to a daily exchange of artillery fire, cavarly and infantry skirmish as both sides lose the offensive momentum. By the winter of 1889 the war had taken on the semblance of trench warfare.
In the spring of 1890, Russia sensing a potential German collapse
sends troops to the East Prussian border. Bismarck, ever the
pragmatist, and realizing that his worst nightmare of having to
fight a two- front war may be coming to pass, sues for peace rather
than have to suffer total defeat in case of a two-front war, and be
made to accept an unconditional surrender.
In May of 1890 the Treaty of Metz is signed in which Germany cedes
the Rhineland to France, except a small peace of North Rhine
Westphalia. In addition Germany had to pay an indemnity of $2
billion dollars to France to be paid within the next four years.


The German navy hadn't yet attained the regional threat status
around 1889, and the French navy would probably end up virtually
being uncontested in the North Sea and defeat any German fleet that
can be mustered against her. So we get a French naval victory at the
Battle of the North Sea sometime in the fall of 1889 or spring of
1890. The French navy blockades Wilhelmshaven and commences a massive
bombardment of German coastal areas. Meanwhile the Franco-Danish Army retakes Schleswig-Holstein and then proceeds on their march to Berlin. The Germans would probably have to divert troops from the Rhine to defend the city for the coming siege and the French army coming in from the Rhineland area encounters lighter resistance and takes Franfurt as well. The war
doesn't look good for Germany as she has never won a multi-front war
in history. She may or may be able to defeat any further Franco-
Danish offensives and delay a linkup between France's Rhineland army
and the Franco-Danish army, but she'd just be prolonging the
inevitable defeat. France can continue sending troops into
Schelswig Hostein because she controls the North Sea. So in any case
we still get the Treaty of Metz in which Germany still cedes the
Rhineland to France, but France gives up Hessen and North Rhine
Westphalia, Denmark gets back what she lost in 1864 Schleswig-
Holstein, and Germany pays a 4 billion dollar indemnity to France.

The actual facts:
Post-1871, France underwent a remarkable military revival, as the
politicans of the Third Republic had not yet turned against the army
and the nation supported the army's rehabilitation. If war had
broken out at the time of the Boulanger Crisis, there would have
been more French infantry battalions and artillery batteries in the
field than the German army could muster AFTER mobilization, and the
difference in the number of cavalry squadrons was closing (Germany
had 465 to France's 385).

While there was little difference in the cavalry and artillery
tactics of the French and the Germans, French infantry had the most
progressive tactics of their time. They broke from company columns
into smaller formations that assumed a broader, loose order front to
survive defenders' fire. Additionally, in 1886, the French began to
rearm with the Lebel magazine rifle that had a rate of fire nearly
twice that of the German M-71/84 Mauser.

There were a whole series of innovations in the French army that
were not found anywhere else: state of the art observation baloons
and tricycles for velocipedists of the messenger corps; gun cotton
was replaced with cordite (a smokeless explosive) and melinite (a
stable nitrogen compound) far superior to the unstable and highly
volatile gun cotton employed in the German army. While the speed of
mobilization was still lower than in the German army, the gap was
not as great as you presume and it was closing, as all militaries in
the wake of the German Wars of Unification realized its centrality
to Prussia's accomplishment; rail capacity between Paris and the
fortresses on the eatsern frontier tripled in between 1877-86.
French reservists were to hold the fortresses, while the regular
armies would flank the forts, employing a defensive strategy which
would have been quite effective given German infantry tactics of the
time (see below). The French were only going to counter-attack after
the Germans had bashed themselves against the fortesses, which
German artillerists were pessimistic about breeching, especially
after 1887, when the French fitted the forts between Verdun and
Belfort with steel towers and reinforced concrete (and which, by the
way, provided the French a huge advantage in heavy artillery-more
below on this) and trenches of eastern France, proving they had
digested the lessons of the Franco-Prussian War. Also, there was no
Belgium option, as in 1914 - the French knew exactly where the
Germans were going to strike. (this is the premise of the above about the French destroying and or capturing a force of 100,000 German reinforcements in 1889)

The notion that the fortress building program was
drawing money away from the regular army is a faulty one; there is no evidence to
support this. Also, one should not confuse the French reserves of the early
Third Republic with those of the late Second Empire. Drawing upon
the lessons of the Franco-Prussian War and the poor performance of
the garde mobile, the law of 1872 addressed the quality of the
reserves. Realizing that reserves were the cheapest way of
maintaining a strong military, the law required that after five
years active service, conscripts enter the reserve, where they would
be required to do about two months service per year (past 30,
reservists were required to provide a months service). There would
be no shortage in the French army of NCOs if one included the
reservists (it was only post-1890 that prejudice against the
reserves became more prominent). Remember that revenge is an
underlying factor behind this war, this ran strong within the French
army from the highest General down to the lowliest private, the prejudice that
French troops would be less motivated than the German troops stems from hindsight to 1940, and not the late 1880s when there was a revival of French militarism and innovations comparable to the Napoleonic period.
In OTL they were itching for a war of revenge with Germany and combined with the improvements in the French army in the years following 1871 would have made for a deadly combination against a German army that had become complacent, more backward in its thinking. More on this below.
Furthermore, given the Third Republic's mania for public
education, the differences in schooling between the soldiers of both
armies would not have been all that great by the late 1880s.

On the administrative side, there existed great divisions,
surrounding the forcing out of Armold von Kameke from the War
Ministry, which only served to make worse the bitter rivalries that
had developed from the mid-1870s between the infantry, cavalry and
artillery (and, in the latter case, within its own arm).

The German army of the 1870s-80s was mired in the past concerning
its ideas when it came to the battlefield, which is why general
trends cannot be projected from 1864-71 to the mid- to late- 1880s.
The German army's history during this period was not a steady climb
to ever increasing efficency - anything but. In fact, the greatest
improvements in the German army came post-1906, not before.

Technopobic senior officers dominated all three branches, managing
to write their positively atavistic doctrines into the regulations.
Drawing the wrong lesson from St. Privat, the infantry was to attack
in massed company and battalion columns because management was
deemed easiest in such formations - of course, they also provided
un-missable targets in the age of repeating rifles; compounding the
problem, the Germans drew the wrong lessons from Mars-la-Tour, with
the infantry adopting the three wave tactics of the previous
century
The artillery situation in the German army was equally dismal and
very divided. The field artillery, still basking in the glory of
Sedan (a situation which was unlikely to happen again) consumed
virtually all the funding to the detriment of the heavy artillery.
Thoughtful officers who pointed to the lesson of Plevna were simply
disregarded or shunted off into perhaps the greatest dead end in the
German army of the time - the heavy artillery, relegated to
fortresses. The belief that the Germans would have enjoyed an
advantage in heavy artillery at the time of Boulanger is a faulty one, given it was
probably the most underfunded branch of the German army.

the Germans were living in the past - and many of them were
accepting of this based upon a chimera. One German military writer,
while noting that Germany's wealthy neighbors may have superior
equipment, weapons, technical education, and an armor of
fortresses ... their officer corps could not match Germany's in
warlike intelligence, independence, initiative and moral strength -
this clearly is a recipe for slaughter. German casualties likely
would have been disastrously high in a war with France at the time
of Boulanger, and not everyone in the German army was blind to this.
Von der Goltz, a thoughtful officer, observed the French maneuvers of
1878 for the General Staff and left impressed by how modern the
French army appeared, compared to when he had last seen it in 1870. He mused
that the tendency of the winner in a war to grow complacent has
overtaken the German army and realized that what had succeeded in
1870 was unlikely to work again - the French army was more up to
date than the German army; eight years later, French observers at
the German manuevers came to exactly the same conclusion as von der
Goltz had. Even Waldersee, who was the proponent of the preemptive
strike against France should Boulanger stage a successful coup,
admitted there were serious problems in the German army. There was
an inclination to return to antiquated battle formations (the
cavalry was perfecting Frederickian tactics) and, as he stated, the
more distance there is between us and our last war, the more
backward our judgement has become.

The French had a very good chance of defeating Germany at the time
of the Boulanger Crisis. And the result of a Franco-Prussian War in
1889-90 would have more likely resulted in a resounding French victory.

Furthermore, The German army at the time of Boulanger was hardly an unbeatable one. At its senior uniformed level, it was a virtual gerontocracy,
with 18 rather elderly corps commanders whom the aged Kaiser Wilhelm
refused to retire out of personal affection. The average age was 64
but a few were in their 70s, the oldest being 76 (the youngest was
49); they largely were averse to field service ( for obvious
reasons) and the French were well aware of this.
 

Rockingham

Banned
Excellent idea Titus, haven't seen something like this before.

Seems a bit of an uber wank for them to advance so far through the Rhine though....

Also, what happened in the colonial theatre? You neither mentioned any Frech actions in the colonies, nor what the treaty specified.

Did Germany concede anything to Russia?

What was Austria-Hungary's, Italy's and Britains reaction to the war?

How long did the war last?

Oh, and who was proclaimed the French monarch? The Bonaparte line had basically been discredited(and I think almost died off), was their anyone who had popular support for the position of monarch in France at this point in time?

Are you planning to develop this timeline further:)?
 
Oh, and who was proclaimed the French monarch? The Bonaparte line had basically been discredited(and I think almost died off), was their anyone who had popular support for the position of monarch in France at this point in time?

Are you planning to develop this timeline further:)?

Napoleon V was a supporter of Boulanger in OTL.
 
I'm getting down on my virtual knees and begging for you to make this into a timeline.

As you laid out, France was probably militarily superior to Germany during this period. Additionally, the Germans were divided not only within their military, but within the very top leadership levels, as at the moment that Boulanger would be leading his coup (1889), Bismarck and Wilhelm were in the last stages of their battle that would end in the next year with Bismarck's resignation.

After France beats the snot out of Germany's attempted intervention and Russia attacks Germans eastern frontier, Germany presumably would sue for peace. What would this peace look like? France will want pre-1871 borders and probably a demilitarized Rhineland, as per OTL at Second Versailles (in this ATL it would probably be Second Versailles as well . . .), but what did Russia want in the East? And what would happen the German Empire? I assume that at least Wilhelm would abdicate, and if he does so it would be to his 7 year old son, also named Wilhelm. Would that happen, or would he abdicate in the both his own name and his son's name and give the throne over to his younger brother Heinrich? I think that would be more likely, since Germany would demand adult leadership. I see the return of Bismarck, since he can blame the loss on Wilhelm II's "incompetent militarism." I don't think Germany would fly apart at this point in the game, but I don't know much about Germany between Versailles I and II.

With Germany militarily humbled, and I assume having sustained territorial losses both east and west, I bet focus on the army will be far higher, rather than having a naval pissing match with the British. The war will certainly change the British calculus about Europe's balance of power, probably in Germany's favor. Also, the Boulanger coup that precipitated the crisis would probably result in a Restoration, and at this point a majority of royalists would probably support Philip, Count of Paris, (who would become Philip VII when he's crowned) the Orleanist candidate, since the main legitimist pretender, Henry V, had died childless some 6 years previously. With the restoration of the monarchy the French can seal their victory over the Germans by signing an alliance with the Russian Empire, who is now fully willing to ally itself to the newly victorious and royal France. The France-Russian alliance, signed at the moment of German defeat, is going to make Britain think that its dealing with the rising powers of France and Russia, both colonial rivals, and see Germany, the defeated power, as the ally Britain needs to counter the Franco-Russian alliance.

Wow, the Germans humbled and full of revanchist sentiment, and still with a Kaiser; the Kingdom of France restored and founding its legitimacy on resounding military victory; Orleanists and Kaisers and Anglo-German alliances oh my!
 

Titus_Pullo

Banned
Excellent idea Titus, haven't seen something like this before.

Seems a bit of an uber wank for them to advance so far through the Rhine though....

Also, what happened in the colonial theatre? You neither mentioned any Frech actions in the colonies, nor what the treaty specified.

Did Germany concede anything to Russia?

What was Austria-Hungary's, Italy's and Britains reaction to the war?

How long did the war last?

Oh, and who was proclaimed the French monarch? The Bonaparte line had basically been discredited(and I think almost died off), was their anyone who had popular support for the position of monarch in France at this point in time?

Are you planning to develop this timeline further:)?


With France now seen as the ogre of Europe, and with the threat of a renewed French occupation of the continent, Britain may decide to cast her lot with her traditional ally Prussia. Afterall, a French general taking over the French government and leading it in a war of conquest sounds horribly familiar to the British. The transfer of French troops to Denmark by sea, is only going to confirm this fear. Mass movement of French troops by sea understandably makes the British very uneasy.

In a major shift of European alliances, Italy may decide to join the Franco-Russian alliance if only for the possible chance of getting a slice of Austro-Hungarian territory. Russia's designs on the decaying Ottoman Empire conflicts with Britain's own interests in the region, and Britain joins the Dual Alliance with Germany and Austria-Hungary.
In 1881 OTL Italy lost out to France in the colonization of Tunis and as a result joined Germany and Austro-Hungary. In this OTL, France may give Italy Tunis as a good will gesture to seal the pact.
As far as Denmark is concerned it would be wise to remain a French vassal for fear of German reprisals, inspite of the fact that Germany is considerably weaker in this TL.

France is left with considerably weaker allies than in OTL echoing Germany's weak allies in OTL. This could play a major factor in a likely event of a major European war.
 

Titus_Pullo

Banned
I'm getting down on my virtual knees and begging for you to make this into a timeline.

As you laid out, France was probably militarily superior to Germany during this period. Additionally, the Germans were divided not only within their military, but within the very top leadership levels, as at the moment that Boulanger would be leading his coup (1889), Bismarck and Wilhelm were in the last stages of their battle that would end in the next year with Bismarck's resignation.

After France beats the snot out of Germany's attempted intervention and Russia attacks Germans eastern frontier, Germany presumably would sue for peace. What would this peace look like? France will want pre-1871 borders and probably a demilitarized Rhineland, as per OTL at Second Versailles (in this ATL it would probably be Second Versailles as well . . .), but what did Russia want in the East? And what would happen the German Empire? I assume that at least Wilhelm would abdicate, and if he does so it would be to his 7 year old son, also named Wilhelm. Would that happen, or would he abdicate in the both his own name and his son's name and give the throne over to his younger brother Heinrich? I think that would be more likely, since Germany would demand adult leadership. I see the return of Bismarck, since he can blame the loss on Wilhelm II's "incompetent militarism." I don't think Germany would fly apart at this point in the game, but I don't know much about Germany between Versailles I and II.

With Germany militarily humbled, and I assume having sustained territorial losses both east and west, I bet focus on the army will be far higher, rather than having a naval pissing match with the British. The war will certainly change the British calculus about Europe's balance of power, probably in Germany's favor. Also, the Boulanger coup that precipitated the crisis would probably result in a Restoration, and at this point a majority of royalists would probably support Philip, Count of Paris, (who would become Philip VII when he's crowned) the Orleanist candidate, since the main legitimist pretender, Henry V, had died childless some 6 years previously. With the restoration of the monarchy the French can seal their victory over the Germans by signing an alliance with the Russian Empire, who is now fully willing to ally itself to the newly victorious and royal France. The France-Russian alliance, signed at the moment of German defeat, is going to make Britain think that its dealing with the rising powers of France and Russia, both colonial rivals, and see Germany, the defeated power, as the ally Britain needs to counter the Franco-Russian alliance.

Wow, the Germans humbled and full of revanchist sentiment, and still with a Kaiser; the Kingdom of France restored and founding its legitimacy on resounding military victory; Orleanists and Kaisers and Anglo-German alliances oh my!

In this timeline it would probably be Bismarck preaching caution about going to war with France, while the Kaiser would be the most vocal saber rattler. Afterall Bismarck in otl tried to avoid war as much as possible being the clausewitzian that he was, "war as a continuation of politics by other means." In short if there are no political goals avoid war as much as possible. The Kaiser, being the megalomaniac that he was, and thinking he can win a war sacks Bismarck.
so let's say in 1889, Bismarck is out and the Kaiser gets his wish.


Remeber the restoration of the French monarchy is only a figurehead, Boulanger is the real power behind the throne and France is a military dictatorship in all but name. Depending on how generous the French feel, they may or may not make the Kaiser abdicate. (I havent actually decided on that yet) wether it would be realistic or not. At any given case, a defeated Germany will have a French military occupation in Berlin to to make sure that the new kaiser was behaving himself.

In OTL, Bavaria jealously guarded its independence from Prussia prior to its defeat in 1866. There were still quite a few Bavarians who weren't too happy losing their independence, and France exploits these feelings. To create an independent buffer state in the region, Bavaria is "liberated" from the German empire and a puppet king is installed. The German empire is considerably smaller as a result and France may strong arm Prussia into giving up its leadership role of the German states.
I'm going to create a timeline for this, encompassing some of the ideas from other posters.
 
the French navy would probably end up virtually
being uncontested in the North Sea and defeat any German fleet that
can be mustered against her. So we get a French naval victory at the
Battle of the North Sea sometime in the fall of 1889 or spring of
1890. The French navy blockades Wilhelmshaven

I know this is before the naval arms race preceeding WWI, but even then was'nt the British navy superior to the french one? Also would the British have let the French put a blockades on a port like Wilhelmshaven, I mean the Germans were one of their main trading partners, also wouldn't this put strain on anglo-french relations, although I suppose with it just being Russia and France v Germany they probably would not care so greatly.
 

mobius

Banned
Interesting timeline, but France wouldn`t be strong enough to impose a carthagininian peace to Germany, because if the franco-russian war aims start to look to harsh England will join the war and it will become a full continental war russia-france vs germany-austria-england with with italy helping the winner;). So France`s best chance is a quick victory and restotation of Alsace, and by this time German unity is too strong to be broken so Bavaria isn`t going to secede.
 
In this timeline it would probably be Bismarck preaching caution about going to war with France, while the Kaiser would be the most vocal saber rattler. Afterall Bismarck in otl tried to avoid war as much as possible being the clausewitzian that he was, "war as a continuation of politics by other means." In short if there are no political goals avoid war as much as possible. The Kaiser, being the megalomaniac that he was, and thinking he can win a war sacks Bismarck.
so let's say in 1889, Bismarck is out and the Kaiser gets his wish.

I think that you are vastly overestimating the French, and vastly underestimating the Germans. If the French are to win this war, it must a quick affair. The Boulanger coup, the German intervention, the French defeat the military intervention and push the Germans into Rhineland, the Russians make noise about intervening, and possibly do, and then the Germans sue for peace. All over in under a year. In order for the French to take Berlin they would have to fight a bloody, grinding campaign across half of Germany, and get the Russians to actually inervene. Though Germany may not have had its proverbial shit together, they have a bigger population, and a strong military tradition, and they would replace commanders and raise more troops in a longer fight. Furthermore the Russian Army, as always, is a mess, and Germany would be able to fend them off, probably rather easily. Basically I think that if you have a more drawn out war the Germans would be able to grind out a win.

Furthermore the French politically were not prepared for a long war. Boulanger needs a quick victory, get Alsace-Lorriane back, humiliate Germany, maybe demilitarize the Rhineland, then have yourself a nice Roman Triumph. He is a coup leader who is running a military dictatorship, which means that he needs quick propaganda. He is popular because he wins quickly, not because he asks his nation to sacrifice for a war that he basically started.

Remember the restoration of the French monarchy is only a figurehead, Boulanger is the real power behind the throne and France is a military dictatorship in all but name.

I don't know that France would have to be a military dictatorship. France's quick victory would cement the new French monarchy and Boulanger's place within it. In a new round of elections I think that Boulanger and the Royalists would be able to win huge majorities, as a result of their military victory. Boulanger would be able to be Prime Minister or Chancellor, make up a title, but he would be able to rule popularly, without the Army. I think his actions OTL demonstrate that he really craved democratic legitimacy, and his ATL actions would allow him to have done a bit of illegal stuff to allow him to have that legitimacy. That is one the beauties of this scenario IMO. The question is how France develops from this point on, because though Boulanger may have a seemingly stable majority, one military loss a little later on, and people may start remembering why they like the Republic. With a man like Philip VII as King, I think that he would be able to establish himself as a very potent symbol within France, and probably provide a strong enough potential counterpoint to Boulanger to allow the monarchy to survive that kind of crisis.

Depending on how generous the French feel, they may or may not make the Kaiser abdicate. (I havent actually decided on that yet) whether it would be realistic or not. At any given case, a defeated Germany will have a French military occupation in Berlin to to make sure that the new kaiser was behaving himself.

As I stated above, I believe the French being anywhere east of the Rhine is implausible, and not productive for where I think you want this timeline to go. I don't think the French would force Wilhelm II to abdicate, I think that the German people/Reichstag/Bismarck would force him to do so. He just oversaw what will be remembered as one of worst disasters in German history, and he will pay for it by signing a humiliating peace and then leaving the throne. I think that German's democratic institutions could get a big boost from this, since the Kaiser's position within the Empire will be greatly weakened, and the Reichstag will probably be able to get more power. This more democratic Second Reich does not mean that they will be any less militaristic, it just means that the Reich Chancellor will never again be excluded from a major foreign policy decision (as Bismarck presumably was in ATL). In fact Bismarck may increase the constitutional power of the Reich Chancellor vis a vis the Kaiser in light of the Second Franco-German War, to prevent another megolmanic military adventurer from bringing ruin to Germany again.

In OTL, Bavaria jealously guarded its independence from Prussia prior to its defeat in 1866. There were still quite a few Bavarians who weren't too happy losing their independence, and France exploits these feelings. To create an independent buffer state in the region, Bavaria is "liberated" from the German empire and a puppet king is installed. The German empire is considerably smaller as a result and France may strong arm Prussia into giving up its leadership role of the German states.

Again, I don't think that France would go into Germany far enough to do things like this. On top of that Bavaria isn't on the French border, so it doesn't provide a "buffer state." I also don't think that France would be able to find a Bavarian Wittelsbach (sp?) to take up the Bavarian throne as a French puppet. This Bavarian kingdom would be cut off from France, and the monarch and any government official would soon find themselves in the crosshairs of German Nationalist freedom fighters. Get Alsace-Lorriane back and demilitarize the Rhineland = totally plausible. Anything east of the Rhine = ASB and more than that outrageously dumb on the French's part. German is bigger and stronger and always will be. It shouldn't be pissed off too badly.
 
Would the French army really have needed to penetrate Germany as far as Berlin to cause them to surrender? In OTL in WWI there was virtually no fighting on German soil before they were forced to sign the "armistice", so I think with France even taking control of the Rhineland area, particularly the Ruhr valley, Germany would have capitulated. Just a thought.

It still is a pretty cool timeline though. And a possible Germano-Britsh alliance you say? YAY!!! :D
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Would the French army really have needed to penetrate Germany as far as Berlin to cause them to surrender? In OTL in WWI there was virtually no fighting on German soil before they were forced to sign the "armistice", so I think with France even taking control of the Rhineland area, particularly the Ruhr valley, Germany would have capitulated. Just a thought.

It still is a pretty cool timeline though. And a possible Germano-Britsh alliance you say? YAY!!! :D

In the WWI the fighting has goine on for 4 years, while this is going to be fast and a relative "clean" fight.
 
The problem with having Berlin fall is that it is REALLY far away from the French border. Paris is quite close to the German border. You don't have to cross any big rivers. To get to Berlin from France, you have to cross the Rhineland, the Rhine, then some more land, then the Elbe, then some more land. It isn't a sprint, its a slog (though it is not even close to the same thing, look how difficult it was for the Western Allies in WWII). Also with the situation that the war happens in, neither side has a great deal of interest in letting this war last a long time and tear them apart. Boulanger wants a quick victory, and once the Germans see that they are going to need to make a far greater investment than IMO they are willing to, to overthrow the French regime, they will want peace.

In WWI the French and Germans were pretty evenly matched, and both were totally politically legitimate. In this case, the French, with an illegitimate regime that has just seized power through a coup, a long-lasting war is that last thing that it needs. The quick one-two, make peace, get down to re-organizing the country.
 

Titus_Pullo

Banned
The problem with having Berlin fall is that it is REALLY far away from the French border. Paris is quite close to the German border. You don't have to cross any big rivers. To get to Berlin from France, you have to cross the Rhineland, the Rhine, then some more land, then the Elbe, then some more land. It isn't a sprint, its a slog (though it is not even close to the same thing, look how difficult it was for the Western Allies in WWII). Also with the situation that the war happens in, neither side has a great deal of interest in letting this war last a long time and tear them apart. Boulanger wants a quick victory, and once the Germans see that they are going to need to make a far greater investment than IMO they are willing to, to overthrow the French regime, they will want peace.

In WWI the French and Germans were pretty evenly matched, and both were totally politically legitimate. In this case, the French, with an illegitimate regime that has just seized power through a coup, a long-lasting war is that last thing that it needs. The quick one-two, make peace, get down to re-organizing the country.

I agree, the best and wisest thing for Boulanger to do is counterattack after the Germans had bashed themselves on the frontier fortresses and take the Rhineland and consolidate their position there.
The French need not call for the Kaiser's resignation as the Germans would probably want him out anyway. The French get their revenge by killing 2 birds with 1 stone. They get Alsace-Lorraine back, a demilitarized Rhineland and a humiliated Kaiser.(Perhaps a French Rhineland?) In retrospect a prolonged war isnt in the best interest of both parties, France in particular. Unless ofcourse the Russians were to get involved. We have to remember Germany is not exactly in the best strategic location.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
I agree, the best and wisest thing for Boulanger to do is counterattack after the Germans had bashed themselves on the frontier fortresses and take the Rhineland and consolidate their position there.
The French need not call for the Kaiser's resignation as the Germans would probably want him out anyway. The French get their revenge by killing 2 birds with 1 stone. They get Alsace-Lorraine back, a demilitarized Rhineland and a humiliated Kaiser.(Perhaps a French Rhineland?) In retrospect a prolonged war isnt in the best interest of both parties, France in particular. Unless ofcourse the Russians were to get involved. We have to remember Germany is not exactly in the best strategic location.

I can't see a French Rhineland without a complete French victory, it's simply worth to much for Germany. But I can see a return of Alsace-Lorraine to France
 
I can't see a French Rhineland without a complete French victory, it's simply worth to much for Germany. But I can see a return of Alsace-Lorraine to France

Complete Rhineland as french, I also don't see.

Alsace-Moselle back to France, definitely. Plus a bit more, IMO.

Saar likely. Left bak of the Rhine ( which is quite different from Rhineland ), possibly, depending on facts on the ground.

The french are going to try for a defensible border, and having the Rhine on the whole border with Germany is going to be very interesting.. If not possible, the triangle formed by the Rhine and Moselle seems a good possibility.

Either would force the germans to attack through Belgium in case of a revenge war
 
Complete Rhineland as french, I also don't see.

Alsace-Moselle back to France, definitely. Plus a bit more, IMO.

Saar likely. Left bak of the Rhine ( which is quite different from Rhineland ), possibly, depending on facts on the ground.

The french are going to try for a defensible border, and having the Rhine on the whole border with Germany is going to be very interesting.. If not possible, the triangle formed by the Rhine and Moselle seems a good possibility.

Either would force the germans to attack through Belgium in case of a revenge war

I don't see this happening though. Britain is not going to allow France to get the left bank of the Rhine. Britain has fought a whole bunch of wars to keep France from reaching "Natural Borders" and will certainly join in if it looks like Germany is in collapse. In OTL, it took 4 years of war and a complete collapse of the German state for France to get a demilitarized Rhineland and temperary occupation of the Saar.
 
It seems likely that France would not recieve the Rhineland without international intervention, i.e Britain. However, the French would definatley get as much as they could, if not more, lets remember their attitude at the end of OTL WWI, had it not been for Wilson and David Lloyd George, Clemenceau would have got his revenge for the humiliating defeat Germany inflicted upon them during the (1870-71) Franco-Prussian war, and ITTL it was only 19 years, I think, after said war, not 45.
 
Well, I think a lot depends if France decides to play smart (achieving a decent victory, but not destruction of Germany) or goes possessed by the ghost of Napoleon. In that case France is likely to throw somebody else over herself (*cough*Britain*cough*) and dinamitates the possibility of dividing the Germans.

In my mind, a good result for France would be return of Alsace-Lorraine plus an enlarged Saarland. As the war is started by the Prussian militarists, a big setback can encourage the Southern German States to break from Germany (only, I repeat, if France plays nice and does not mention of natural borders nor annexation of any inch of these southern states). This, possibly combined with some type of disturbs in Northern Germany and/or a general success of the Russian offensive from the other side if there is one (not sure how likely is any of these events) can knee the German Government and force it to ask for peace. France can be then even smarter and ask for the restoration of Hannover, making Britain and Austria smile and not willing to discuss France' success. France does not need to ask for the removal of the Kaiser, even; in the aftermath of the defeat his position is so bad and unstable that the own German Empire is likely to collapse on their own and be replaced by another loosely German Confederation.

That, of course, if France plays nice. If Boulanger goes crazy and akes clear that he wants to annex half of Germany, he would just put the Germans together and ready to defend the homeland, and make them the victims in foreign eyes. Divide and Conquer!
 
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