Franco British Russian intervention in the ACW

PoD is the Trent affair turning hot. France wanting to expand it's influence recognizes the Confederacy and deploys a naval force.

Immediate effect is the Union Navy is crushed. the USA CSA Frontier and the USA BNA Frontier likely sink into Stalemate. Union economy suffers and Confederate economy improves / is not starved as badly.

The Russians seeing the British occupied in North America takes a second crack at the Turks and declares support for the Union.

So how does this scenario play out?
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
PoD is the Trent affair turning hot. France wanting to expand it's influence recognizes the Confederacy and deploys a naval force.

Immediate effect is the Union Navy is crushed. the USA CSA Frontier and the USA BNA Frontier likely sink into Stalemate. Union economy suffers and Confederate economy improves / is not starved as badly.

The Russians seeing the British occupied in North America takes a second crack at the Turks and declares support for the Union.

So how does this scenario play out?

If the Russians want to take a second crack at the Turks, they would be foolish to declare open support for the Union. They should rather hope the British don't get involved in the Russo-Turkish conflict at all, instead remaining bogged down in the war with the Union and wanting an excuse not to declare war against Russia.
 
Unfortunately for the US, Russia's navy is very small at the time and its Baltic and Black sea coasts can be threatened by the Anglo-French with relative ease, even if we assume Turkey will be easy to beat (not necessarily a guaranteed thing).
 
Unfortunately for the US, Russia's navy is very small at the time and its Baltic and Black sea coasts can be threatened by the Anglo-French with relative ease, even if we assume Turkey will be easy to beat (not necessarily a guaranteed thing).

If I recall, Russia's Navy was actually the third largest in the world behind Britain and France, and docked in US harbors for the winter (and were on good terms with the Americans btw).
 
If I recall, Russia's Navy was actually the third largest in the world behind Britain and France, and docked in US harbors for the winter (and were on good terms with the Americans btw).

Regardless of how good the Russian navy actually is, it's still number 3 and, what, number 7? 8? higher? Going up against numbers 1 and 2. Not a winning proposition. This might be a scenario where the battles on land are won by one side but the war is won at sea by the other.
 
Russia was the only European Power that was wholeheartedly Pro-Union from the moment Lincoln was elected.
 
If I recall, Russia's Navy was actually the third largest in the world behind Britain and France, and docked in US harbors for the winter (and were on good terms with the Americans btw).

Yes, well.

Small by Russian standards...and no Black Sea navy worth speaking of in the Black Sea as per the treaty that ended the Crimean war. Not a good situation for them.
 
Regardless of how good the Russian navy actually is, it's still number 3 and, what, number 7? 8? higher? Going up against numbers 1 and 2. Not a winning proposition. This might be a scenario where the battles on land are won by one side but the war is won at sea by the other.
Russia can also afford to divert more of its navy to combat than the other two. Whereas Britain and France have massive colonial Empires to keep up with and to divert their attention not only navally but militarily, Russia has none to speak of. It may be a limited part, but it would have an impact.

On another matter, if Russia goes to war, there's a good chance Prussian joins in on their side. Both had built up a good relationship (Prussia aided in keeping down Russia's Polish uprising; Russia didn't interfere with Prussia's dreams of expansion) and Alexander II was even proposing an alliance. That would add strength to the Americans for the land war.

Yes, well.

Small by Russian standards...and no Black Sea navy worth speaking of in the Black Sea as per the treaty that ended the Crimean war. Not a good situation for them.

But a massive fleet nonetheless and one focus on the United States since it anchored there.
 
Russia can also afford to divert more of its navy to combat than the other two. Whereas Britain and France have massive colonial Empires to keep up with and to divert their attention not only navally but militarily, Russia has none to speak of. It may be a limited part, but it would have an impact.
.

ACtually false on two counts.

Russia did have a substantial colonial empire at that time. It just happened that most of it was reachable by land.

France certainly didn't have a massive colonial empire in the early 1860s.

In addition in the case of Uk and France, the navy needed to maintain the colonial empire was not the main battle fleet or even units needed to deal with commerce raiders.
 

Dure

Banned
In addition in the case of Uk and France, the navy needed to maintain the colonial empire was not the main battle fleet or even units needed to deal with commerce raiders.

What commerce raiders? The Union navy is hopelessly outnumbered and out classed. It has at best 20-30 ships that make worthwhile commerce raiders most of which are needed as capital ships. None of these ships save 1 is on the west coast, 1 is probably in the Med., 1 or 2 in European waters, 1 or 2 in the North Atlantic the rest are off the east and gulf coasts. They are all bottled-up trapped by three British stations NA&WI, NECoSA and WA&CGH.

Most of the good ships in the USA are already in the USN having been purchased by the Govt. All that are left are wooden sailing ships. There are no cannon left to arm them. If they fight as privateers they will be treated as pirates by the Paris Declaration nations (which includes Russia - problem there). They are also easy for British and French gunvessels to hunt down. No master or seaman in his right mind is going to sign on in that situation.

Russia is a Paris signatory, they will not use privateers.

The Russian fleet in the Pacific is probably iced in a good portion of it is certainly iced in. Those ships that are not can only be supplied from ports in China. The Baltic and white sea fleets can be interdicted off the coast of Norway by a very small flotilla. The BSF can be trapped when the British close the Bosphorous and the Baltic fleet can also be trapped by a small flotilla. The ships of Russia and the Union in the Med., no more than six are toast. Trapped between the battle fleet in the Ionian and Gibraltar.

The only advantage the Union gets out of this compared with the usual Trent war is that the British need to pull a fair number of ships out of reserve before they can completely blockade the USA, so add another three months to the war and some Yankee dairing do exploits but nothing really changes. The blockade is already 60% effective if the British simly stop trading with the Union and they can do more of their blockading in European waters until they have the reserves they need.

Bottom line, Russia would not support the Union under any circumstances, it might take the opportunity presented by a Trent war to further its own ambitions but I am not sure if they would include Turkey.
 

67th Tigers

Banned
But a massive fleet nonetheless and one focus on the United States since it anchored there.

No, the small squadron that anchored in NY consisted of 3 frigates, 2 corvettes and a few minor vessels.

Russia might have been third, but it was a very distant third.

Turning to the 1859 figures and comparing

Screw Liners 7 to 69 RN
Screw Frigates 11 to 38 RN
Screw Corvettes 11 to 60 RN
 
I'm pretty sure the Russians unequivocally stated they would back the Union against foreign intervention. So the war would very quickly become Russia/US vs. British/French/CSA. William I of Prussia was not an idiot and would probably take action against the French as the Prussians were contemplating in the Franco-Austrian War. A Prussian-Russian alliance could then easily convince Austria to join up and win back her Italian holding or at least get some revenge on the French. Basically the Civil War would be a world war with Russia/US/Prussia/Austria vs. British/French/CSA and maybe Italy/Turkey depending on how the Russians and Austrians play it.

Naval-wise the number of effective ships in every countries arsenal in 1861 was:
France: 3 – La Gloire, Magenta, Solferino
Britain: 1 - HMS Warrior
US, CSA, Russia, Prussia, Austria, Italy, Turkey, the world: 0
A year later in 1862 OTL the combined British-French fleet would be 16 ironclads completed or under construction. Explosive shells and torpedoes will shut down every navy in the world until sufficient ironclads are built. So no one is going to be able to have a serious blockade going before 1863-64.
The British will be out of the land war until at least 1862-63, as Bismarck said in 1870 if the British army landed he Prussia he "would send a police officer and to arrest it." The British would need time to train up a serious army while the Royal Navy will be fighting only on the fringes, checkmated by torpedoes and land based artillery in coastal waters for at least the first couple of years. Even when the Royal Navy gets in gear though it won’t be that effective, the US/Russia/Prussia/Austria alliance are between them going to have enough natural resources and industry to fight out the war, especially the US which was rich enough in industry and resources to be supplying the Mexican rebellion against the French and building warships for foreign governments during the Civil War OTL.

The war would probably devolve into smaller showdowns with USA vs. CSA and Prussia/Austria vs. France/Italy with Britain and Russia intervening everywhere they could.
The US will probably beat the CSA around 1864 since the war is now much bigger Lincoln will probably be even more willing to sack incompetent generals and the basic manpower and geographic weaknesses of the CSA will be a major factor.
Prussia/Austria will probably beat the French but it will be a long fight and also where the British will devote most of their army once it’s trained, so that war probably won't end until 65-66.
Ultimately the US/Russia/Austria/Prussia alliance would probably win out since they’ll have the advantage on land and eventually out produce the British in ships once the CSA and France are knocked out of the war.
 

67th Tigers

Banned
I'm pretty sure the Russians unequivocally stated they would back the Union against foreign intervention.


No, the local commander of the force at NY delivered a flowery speech to that effect, but it was a smokescreen. The Russians had no intention of getting into a war if they could avoid it.

Naval-wise the number of effective ships in every countries arsenal in 1861 was:
France: 3 – La Gloire, Magenta, Solferino
Britain: 1 - HMS Warrior
US, CSA, Russia, Prussia, Austria, Italy, Turkey, the world: 0
A year later in 1862 OTL the combined British-French fleet would be 16 ironclads completed or under construction. Explosive shells and torpedoes will shut down every navy in the world until sufficient ironclads are built. So no one is going to be able to have a serious blockade going before 1863-64.


What an odd notion. that only ironclads were effective. One with no basis in fact. Explosive shells of the era were incredibly ineffective, and the wooden battleship is still a viable unit. I even blogged about it.

The British will be out of the land war until at least 1862-63, as Bismarck said in 1870 if the British army landed he Prussia he "would send a police officer and to arrest it." The British would need time to train up a serious army while the Royal Navy will be fighting only on the fringes, checkmated by torpedoes and land based artillery in coastal waters for at least the first couple of years.


The British have a very serious army. They can put 3 Corps on the Continent at the drop of a hat, a force equal to one of the major Prussian armies of 1866 in numbers, and of much higher quality.

In 1863 the British can deploy 75,000 regulars to North America with relative impunity. That's a force equal in size to Lee's Army of Northern Virginia, but much better trained, equipped and experienced. Given the walkover the Army of the Potomac had in 1863 (not), I don't expect anything bar defeat after defeat for any American force invading Canada.

Ultimately the US/Russia/Austria/Prussia alliance would probably win out since they’ll have the advantage on land and eventually out produce the British in ships once the CSA and France are knocked out of the war.

Fantasy.
 

Dure

Banned
I'm pretty sure the Russians unequivocally stated they would back the Union against foreign intervention.
I often hear this statement. I have never found any evidence to back it up. It is certainly not true for the Trent Affair where the Russians were very clear (in the most polite of terms) that the USA was in the wrong and that they strongly recommended that her government yield to the British terms. There is no realistic chance of Russia supporting the Union in a Trent war.
The US state department has put most, if not all of its diplomatic correspondence for this period on the Internet. I have trawled through an awful lot of it and I have never found anything indicating that Russia would support the Union in any situation. If you have primary information to the contrary I would be delighted to look at it.
Elements of the Russian fleet overwintered in San Francisco and New York in 1863-4 this was widely seen as an attempt to ensure that they were neither iced in or blockaded in a tense period in Anglo-Russian relations where there was indeed a possibility of war between Russia and Britain. However, overall British relations with the USA were quite cordial by this time (with the odd serious blip). There is a lot of talk of sealed orders for the Russia Admiral commanding the flotilla in NY. It may well be true but because they were secret and have never turned up no one knows what they say. Why would they commit the Russian Empire to a new diplomatic road without reason?
So the war would very quickly become Russia/US vs. British/French/CSA.
As demonstrated, this would not happen.
William I of Prussia was not an idiot and would probably take action against the French as the Prussians were contemplating in the Franco-Austrian War.
What Franco-Austrian War? Do you mean the Franco-Sardinian, part of the Risorgimento? Because at the time of Trent it has been over a year and more.
A Prussian-Russian alliance could then easily convince Austria to join up and win back her Italian holding or at least get some revenge on the French.
These would be the Prussians the Austrians went to war with in 1866?
Basically the Civil War would be a world war with Russia/US/Prussia/Austria vs. British/French/CSA and maybe Italy/Turkey depending on how the Russians and Austrians play it.
I think you are in ASB territory here.

Naval-wise the number of effective ships in every countries arsenal in 1861 was:
France: 3 – La Gloire, Magenta, Solferino
Britain: 1 - HMS Warrior
US, CSA, Russia, Prussia, Austria, Italy, Turkey, the world: 0
1) The situation in 1861 except December is irrelevant to a Trent POD
2) Your numbers are wrong for 1861 (see below)
A year later in 1862 OTL the combined British-French fleet would be 16 ironclads completed or under construction.
In Dec. 1861 the Royal Navy have 5 armoured ships in commission (Warrior, Defence, Aetna, Thunderbolt and Terror, which is at Bermuda), four in first class reserve i.e. ready to go in a few weeks, four in second class reserve and twelve building a total of 25 armoured ships for the RN alone. You can check this with the Navy list for Dec. 1861 which is on the internet.
I do not have good details for the French in 1861 but they have at least six armoured ships in commission or reserve. However, I am reasonably sure that whilst they were launched in 1861, Magenta and Solferino were completed in 1862 and are not included in this list. The French did completed eight ironclads in 1862 so by the end of the year they had 14 in commission or reserve with several more building.
Note that both Britain and France were building commercial ironclads for foreign navies and have several of these hulls each that they can take into service if needed.
Explosive shells and torpedoes will shut down every navy in the world until sufficient ironclads are built.
Explosive shells did not stop the steam liners in the Crimea or Lissa they won’t stop them here.
By torpedoes I assume you mean mines. In this period they are only really relevant to riverine warfare and need a point on the bank for an observer to detonate it from.
Real Whitehead torpedoes in OTL have go a few years to wait but Whitehead did have a proto-type by the time of the Trent Affair.
So no one is going to be able to have a serious blockade going before 1863-64.
This does not follow even if you accept your prepositions which were nearly all false.
The British will be out of the land war until at least 1862-63, as Bismarck said in 1870 if the British army landed he Prussia he "would send a police officer and to arrest it."
1870 is not 1862.
The British would need time to train up a serious army while the Royal Navy will be fighting only on the fringes, checkmated by torpedoes and land based artillery in coastal waters for at least the first couple of years.
1) The British have a decent, well trained, modestly sized army at this time and a militia system, arsenals and industrial base to expand it quickly
2) The USA did not have enough cannon in OTL to supply its coastal forts. Without British iron the problem will be much worse. The British are facing almost empty forts.
3) With an acute shortage of powder for at least 9 months whilst they get nitre beds going the Union won’t even be able to fire the larger cannon it does have. They powder is all imported from the British Empire. India is the only significant manufacturer due to peculiarities of climate and agriculture.
4) Confederate torpedoes (mines) only sank a few Union vessels, they won’t sink that many more British and French ones. They do consume lots of gunpowder.
Even when the Royal Navy gets in gear though it won’t be that effective, the US/Russia/Prussia/Austria alliance are between them going to have enough natural resources and industry to fight out the war,
How does the output of Union industry get to Prussia? It does not of course. The USA is on its own. Hell Russia cannot even supply the Russia far east! All four of these nations together do not produce a significant fraction of what Britain does. Without British industrial exports, primarily iron, steel and railstock the Union and probably the Prussians as well will see their economy collapse.
especially the US which was rich enough in industry and resources to be supplying the Mexican rebellion against the French and building warships for foreign governments during the Civil War OTL.
Actually during 1862/3 it supplied the rebellion with very little and in OTL the USA was not blockaded by the British. Remember the British do not have to put any ships in the water and the USA loses 60% of its imports, that being the fraction of trade with the British Empire.
Webb’s built two armoured ships for export in the American Civil War for Piedmont-Sardinia which were delivered to Italy the successor state. Both ships fought at Lissa one was lost to ramming. Both were so-so ironclads their big weakness being they used forged iron rather than rolled iron. The same technology the British and French used in 1855/6 for the floating batteries. The USA could offer nothing better in 1860-65. In Spring 1862 both of these ships, the best ironclads the USA produced in the whole American Civil War are still on the slipways.

The war would probably devolve into smaller showdowns with USA vs. CSA and Prussia/Austria vs. France/Italy with Britain and Russia intervening everywhere they could.
This is ASB, which side are the orcs and goblins fighting for?

The US will probably beat the CSA around 1864 since the war is now much bigger Lincoln will probably be even more willing to sack incompetent generals and the basic manpower and geographic weaknesses of the CSA will be a major factor.
You may not have noticed but it is now the USA that has the Geographic weakness, it can be surrounded and divided into two. It won’t happen of course the USA economy will have fallen apart in little more than six months.

Prussia/Austria will probably beat the French but it will be a long fight and also where the British will devote most of their army once it’s trained, so that war probably won't end until 65-66.
In your dreams! In such a war France might lose but there is no reason to expect a long war.
The British army will go to BNA, California (mostly Indian) and possibly the Bosphorous, certainly the Med. and Ionian sea.

Ultimately the US/Russia/Austria/Prussia alliance would probably win out since they’ll have the advantage on land and eventually out produce the British in ships once the CSA and France are knocked out of the war.
Ah! The magic Union ship builder turns up yet again. It will not happen.
1) What ever the USA does in ship building the British have the capacity to out build it 4 to 1 without recourse to Canadian or Indian yards or French assistance.
2) All American yards are vulnerable to maritime/amphibious attack by the RN once the war gets going the USA won’t be able to build ships.
3) Any ship that is built has to run a blockade with crews that become more and more inexperienced as the war goes on.
4) The USA and Russia do not produce enough iron to make the ships and cannon they need. They have no Bessemer converters at all so they can’t make significant quantities of steel.
5) There is no foreign investment to fund the expansion of American domestic industry.
6) All Russian, Austrian and Prussian ports are easily blockaded.
 
Coming soon a thread on Franco-British-Russian-Italian-Austrian-Prussian-Dutch-Chinese-Japanese-Mexican-Ottoman-Spanish-Danish-Zulu-Thai-Draka-Borg-Terminator-Sith intervention in the ACW!:D
 
I'm pretty sure the Russians unequivocally stated they would back the Union against foreign intervention. So the war would very quickly become Russia/US vs. British/French/CSA. William I of Prussia was not an idiot and would probably take action against the French as the Prussians were contemplating in the Franco-Austrian War. A Prussian-Russian alliance could then easily convince Austria to join up and win back her Italian holding or at least get some revenge on the French. Basically the Civil War would be a world war with Russia/US/Prussia/Austria vs. British/French/CSA and maybe Italy/Turkey depending on how the Russians and Austrians play it.

Naval-wise the number of effective ships in every countries arsenal in 1861 was:
France: 3 – La Gloire, Magenta, Solferino
Britain: 1 - HMS Warrior
US, CSA, Russia, Prussia, Austria, Italy, Turkey, the world: 0
A year later in 1862 OTL the combined British-French fleet would be 16 ironclads completed or under construction. Explosive shells and torpedoes will shut down every navy in the world until sufficient ironclads are built. So no one is going to be able to have a serious blockade going before 1863-64.
The British will be out of the land war until at least 1862-63, as Bismarck said in 1870 if the British army landed he Prussia he "would send a police officer and to arrest it." The British would need time to train up a serious army while the Royal Navy will be fighting only on the fringes, checkmated by torpedoes and land based artillery in coastal waters for at least the first couple of years. Even when the Royal Navy gets in gear though it won’t be that effective, the US/Russia/Prussia/Austria alliance are between them going to have enough natural resources and industry to fight out the war, especially the US which was rich enough in industry and resources to be supplying the Mexican rebellion against the French and building warships for foreign governments during the Civil War OTL.

The war would probably devolve into smaller showdowns with USA vs. CSA and Prussia/Austria vs. France/Italy with Britain and Russia intervening everywhere they could.
The US will probably beat the CSA around 1864 since the war is now much bigger Lincoln will probably be even more willing to sack incompetent generals and the basic manpower and geographic weaknesses of the CSA will be a major factor.
Prussia/Austria will probably beat the French but it will be a long fight and also where the British will devote most of their army once it’s trained, so that war probably won't end until 65-66.
Ultimately the US/Russia/Austria/Prussia alliance would probably win out since they’ll have the advantage on land and eventually out produce the British in ships once the CSA and France are knocked out of the war.



Dude you gotta stop reading Robert Conroy. Its bad for the brain.
 

67th Tigers

Banned
1870 is not 1862.

True, the British Army of 1870 is actually slightly smaller than in 1862 (the estimates started falling with the 1862 estimates, by 1870 much of the field logistics of the army have been dismantled).

The Prussian Army of 1862 is terrible, but we've already discussed that.

1) The British have a decent, well trained, modestly sized army at this time and a militia system, arsenals and industrial base to expand it quickly

Qualitatively the British are probably the best in the world, certainly they have the best infantry and artillery arms of any army. The cavalry arm is rather a blighted flower, its indulging in a period of woe and retreating into notions of fighting with breechloading and repeating carbines instead of sabres. They'll get over it though.

The British Army is a fairly decent size. At home there is a force of about 100,000 regulars. While smaller than the mobilisation strength of France (316,000), Prussia (212,000), Austria (298,000) or Russia (578,000) it does provide for a pretty potent force. On mobilisation the British Army, calling out it's Militia, Volunteers, Yeomanry and Reservists swells to over 390,000 at home. The strength of the British Army for home defence is the largest of any European nation except Russia. There are, of course, about 80,000 British soldiers in India and another 80,000 in the other colonies (notably in the Mediterranean), of whom a substancial disposable force can be culled (maybe 50,000 including deployable Indian troops). It is doubtful the British could project much more than 100,000 onto the Continent.

4) Confederate torpedoes (mines) only sank a few Union vessels, they won’t sink that many more British and French ones. They do consume lots of gunpowder.

The RN also had considerable experience of mine warfare, and of mine sweeping. Russian mine operations and RN counter mine doctrine is a lot more advanced than that of the ACW.
 
PoD is the Trent affair turning hot. France wanting to expand it's influence recognizes the Confederacy and deploys a naval force.

Immediate effect is the Union Navy is crushed. the USA CSA Frontier and the USA BNA Frontier likely sink into Stalemate. Union economy suffers and Confederate economy improves / is not starved as badly.

The Russians seeing the British occupied in North America takes a second crack at the Turks and declares support for the Union.

So how does this scenario play out?

If the "enlightened" powers of Europe are comfortable fighting a war to preserve slavery...ah hell, it's Franco-Britanic Colonialism under a different name so it actually makes more sense than OTL when they stayed out.

Sure, whatever. The mighty Euros will swoop in, crush the Union within the hour and enjoy all the free cotton they can rape from the CSA as compensation for their God-like benevolent interference on behalf of a weakling Confederacy.

What? You have them crushing the Union. If they could crush the Union, they just have to park a squadron in every Confederate port and extort whatever they want from them, because if they can crush the Union so easily, they'd practically colonize the Confederacy. Apparently, there's nothing on Earth short of the Hand of God that can stop the Brits and the French from doing anything they want at the time, so there's nothing to stop them, apparently.

This thread's so Eurowanked it's bruised.

If you guys wank it any harder, you'll rip it right off the damn page.
 

Dure

Banned
If the "enlightened" powers of Europe are comfortable fighting a war to preserve slavery...

If it is over Trent then for the British it is over neutrality and the freedom of the seas it has bog all to do with slavery.

... ah hell, it's Franco-Britanic Colonialism under a different name so it actually makes more sense than OTL when they stayed out.

For the French it is an opportunity to secure their hold on Mexico and eliminate the Union's but even for them - it is over neutrality and the freedom of the seas it has bog all to do with slavery.

Sure, whatever. The mighty Euros will swoop in, crush the Union within the hour and enjoy all the free cotton they can rape from the CSA as compensation for their God-like benevolent interference on behalf of a weakling Confederacy.

They are not interceeding for the Confederacy, the British are interceeding because the Union have committed what is in effect an act of priacy and decided not to say sorry. The French are interceeding for the same reason and a great big juicy colonial prize as well.

What? You have them crushing the Union. If they could crush the Union, they just have to park a squadron in every Confederate port and extort whatever they want from them, because if they can crush the Union so easily, they'd practically colonize the Confederacy.

Nation states do not behave (as a rule) like pirates without a reason. For your information the British did plant a battle fleet off the US coasts just to make sure the USA behaved themselves when searching and sometimes taking British merchant ships to court. Why colonise the Confederacy what is wrong with trade?

Apparently, there's nothing on Earth short of the Hand of God that can stop the Brits and the French from doing anything they want at the time, so there's nothing to stop them, apparently.

War costs money both France and especially Britain wanted to go and make money. There were lots militarily that they could not do. Britain for example would go along way to avoid a big European engagement, it was far too expensive and France cocked-up the Mexican colony idea. However, bring the Union to its knees and forcing her to yeild on punative terms is well within Britain's capabilities if more questionable in France's case. For an alliance, it is hard to imagine how it could lose.

This thread's so Eurowanked it's bruised.

If you are an American patriot then it is hard not to feel upset when you realise how weak your country was almost 150 years ago. I assure you however there is no Euro-wank here. I might also point out that Russia, Prussia and Austria were in Europe last time I checked. If you want to dispute anything I have said or suggest a strategy whereby the Union can win tell me about it, I have never heard a sensible one.

If you guys wank it any harder, you'll rip it right off the damn page.

In a Trent war the Shermanisation only really starts when the Union starts losing terriotory that is not on the Canadian border, New Orleans or the West Coast. Everything else is a reasonable bet.
 
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