Franco-Austrian Alliance in war agianst Germany?

1. Could it happen?
2. Under what circumstances?
3. Likely Casus belli?
4. What would the out come be in the event of war?
5. Best battle plan for each side?
6. The rest of Europe's reaction? Who takes who's side and who stays neutral who sends a strongly worded letter?
 
Assuming it is 1866 or 1870, I think there's a good chance Prussia can pull Russia into the fray.

And Italy plus.. because for a Italian, Independance means the stealing of territory to Austria.

And that can make the British very anxious about the 'balance of power'...

In general that means an Early WW1...
 
It would be an early European theatre war that will be dominated by Prussia and her allies. Prussia had literally dominated Austria and France OTL through the use of railroads and better weaponry. There's no reason to think they wouldn't do it against both. Prussia has faced both at the same time before, and with Italian/Russian support, Austria and France would be facing a serious threat.

England is the unknown-would they jump ship with their biggest rival in Europe now or join their old enemy in France and try to re balance Europe?
 
It would be an early European theatre war that will be dominated by Prussia and her allies. Prussia had literally dominated Austria and France OTL through the use of railroads and better weaponry. There's no reason to think they wouldn't do it against both. Prussia has faced both at the same time before, and with Italian/Russian support, Austria and France would be facing a serious threat.

England is the unknown-would they jump ship with their biggest rival in Europe now or join their old enemy in France and try to re balance Europe?

When, the seven years' war? I doubt they'd get that lucky again. Then again, they might still have a chance due to the sheer superiority of their staff system and military organisation in general*, but it would be a serious risk.
 
Prussia is a lot stronger as a nation than it was earlier, too. They don't need luck to the extent the puny Prussia in the 18th century did.

Also, it did reasonably well at not losing in the War of the Austrian Succession, though I'm not sure how much it was up against at once.
 
I think it is possible and actually rather easy, all you need is France and Austria in slightly better terms than OTL. If France and Austria cooperated more during Italian Unification and/or the Crimean War they might have developed better relations. It is surpassing actually that France didn't try anything to stop Prussia from growing until OTL's Franco-Prussian war. After all it is both their interests to see a weaker Prussia. But by the time France acted it was too late to stop them.

As far as whether they could have beaten Prussia together, I think the earlier the conflict the greater chance they have. It would be best to have Russia stay out of it. Italy is likely to go in Prussia's side regardless.

In the best scenario I see France and Austria able to maintain a semi-status quo for a while. In the long run it might mean the survival of Austria as a whole. And I could see an independent Southern German Confederation (based around Bavaria Wuttemberg Baden) independent from whatever Germany Prussia is able to make.
 
It would be an early European theatre war that will be dominated by Prussia and her allies. Prussia had literally dominated Austria and France OTL through the use of railroads and better weaponry. There's no reason to think they wouldn't do it against both. Prussia has faced both at the same time before, and with Italian/Russian support, Austria and France would be facing a serious threat.

England is the unknown-would they jump ship with their biggest rival in Europe now or join their old enemy in France and try to re balance Europe?

1) Prussia dominated Austria through superior weaponry, roads played less a part in that war than simple weapons tech.
2) Prussia dominated France due to their reserves, not their weaponry - in fact, the only place where Prussian weaponry was better than French was when it came to artillery. The French standard rifle in 1870 was better than the Prussian counterpart.
3) Railroads were important for kicking off their opening invasion timetables. After that, not so much other than supplies and reinforcements, and by then France was all but overrun.
4) Prussia never really had superior numbers - put up against both will seriously threaten Prussia's abilities to wage an effective war against both. Perhaps a Schlieffen sort of plan.
5) As mentioned, the 'modern' Prussia had not dealt with both at the same time - and the older Prussia would have gotten their asses handed to them.

British, Italian, and Russian involvement won't change much in the opening stages. If France is allied with Austria, Britain will back Prussia. This reduces France's available manpower as they'll have to watch the sea. Russia and Austria at the time are largely on-par for tactics and tech. That is, they both suck. Russia can overwhelm them though, once they get going... and before Russia falls apart. Actually, Russia at this time might not even be a match for Austria since they perform so terribly in the war against the Turks later on...

I think it is possible and actually rather easy, all you need is France and Austria in slightly better terms than OTL. If France and Austria cooperated more during Italian Unification and/or the Crimean War they might have developed better relations. It is surpassing actually that France didn't try anything to stop Prussia from growing until OTL's Franco-Prussian war. After all it is both their interests to see a weaker Prussia. But by the time France acted it was too late to stop them.

As far as whether they could have beaten Prussia together, I think the earlier the conflict the greater chance they have. It would be best to have Russia stay out of it. Italy is likely to go in Prussia's side regardless.

In the best scenario I see France and Austria able to maintain a semi-status quo for a while. In the long run it might mean the survival of Austria as a whole. And I could see an independent Southern German Confederation (based around Bavaria Wuttemberg Baden) independent from whatever Germany Prussia is able to make.

During the mid 19th century, any sort of German War of Unification means a similar Italian War of Unification will occur concurrently. This is simply because Austria was in both baskets and any Germany not directed by Austria is therefore going to be fighting against Austria. An interesting dynamic, really, as the survival of one is almost entirely dependent upon the survival and success of the other.

Now, France was actually quite happy to see Prussia and Austria go to war because they thought it would be a quick war and Prussia would be on the losing end. When - after the first week was up - they saw the Prussians in full dominance, they were totally shocked. They expected somewhat that the Austrians could salvage the day, but were not quite prepared for the conflict. Simply put, they didn't really have a valid Casus Belli. Had they jumped, that might well have pulled Britain in worrying over maybe Napoleon III taking up his Uncle's cause.

Of course, Bismarck was terribly worried about this which is why in the negotiations Prussia went so lightly on Austria. It is also why, when going to war with France, he made damn sure to court the powers and show them that it was France who declared war, it was France who was the aggressor over something simple, and Prussia was only defending herself.

1. Could it happen?
2. Under what circumstances?
3. Likely Casus belli?
4. What would the out come be in the event of war?
5. Best battle plan for each side?
6. The rest of Europe's reaction? Who takes who's side and who stays neutral who sends a strongly worded letter?

1: Yes.
2: Various options.
3: Alliance system seems pretty likely.
4: Depends, is Prussia alone? Has she thrashed Austria and formed the North German Confederation? What is her relationship with the south german states?
5: France - Dead rush into Prussia; Austria - consolidation and thrust through south german states while guarding the Sudeten Mounts; Prussia - draw one or another army into a delaying action, while crushing the other (likely kill of Austria quicker, as she's weaker of the two), then pivot to deal with the other.
6: Again, depends on the casus belli and whatnot. Britain may well stay out of it if its Prussia who got the ball rolling. Russia may come to Prussia's aid, depending on whose on the thrones at the time and their personal relationship... of course, it might also just come in to smack Austria a bit Italy will jump Austria, for sure, maybe France as well - or wait for France to jump them.

Very likely scenario, if the cards fall the right way.
 
1) Prussia dominated Austria through superior weaponry, roads played less a part in that war than simple weapons tech.
2) Prussia dominated France due to their reserves, not their weaponry - in fact, the only place where Prussian weaponry was better than French was when it came to artillery. The French standard rifle in 1870 was better than the Prussian counterpart.
3) Railroads were important for kicking off their opening invasion timetables. After that, not so much other than supplies and reinforcements, and by then France was all but overrun.
4) Prussia never really had superior numbers - put up against both will seriously threaten Prussia's abilities to wage an effective war against both. Perhaps a Schlieffen sort of plan.
5) As mentioned, the 'modern' Prussia had not dealt with both at the same time - and the older Prussia would have gotten their asses handed to them.


So the Prussians had reserves but not superior numbers? It sounds like they would just have to break the French and the Austrian armies, much like they did in OTL. Prussian military strategy was much better than the French and Austrians, so unless both French and Austrian forces are communicating with each other I don't know why they would have an advantage?

Also, Bismarck made a secret alliance in April 1866 with the Italians that if there was war between Prussia and Austria, Italy would join the war. I'm not sure how powerful Italy's army was, but it could cause some problems if Prussia gets an early head start.



To answer your question earlier, yeah I was thinking more along the lines of the Seven Year's War. my bad :eek:
 
As usual your prejudices and bias shine.
Only you could define "stealing" the fight for independence

Well, Lombardia and Venetia for 1860 were part of the Habsburg Empire(Second war of 'italian independance') and they lose Lombardia when the french give support to Italy in their way to try to have italy as vassal(who backfire twice spectaculary), ditto in 1866 with Venetia.. and later all the belle epoque rumbling of 'liberate' the 'Irredentia' of Trento, Trieste and Dalmatia(when in the second and later were more italian speaking slavs for monetary reasons that italians), and a long etc.....

Well not waiting a flame war... In general any war with france east of the moselle demands general intervention(the spectre of Napoleon)
 
So the Prussians had reserves but not superior numbers? It sounds like they would just have to break the French and the Austrian armies, much like they did in OTL. Prussian military strategy was much better than the French and Austrians, so unless both French and Austrian forces are communicating with each other I don't know why they would have an advantage?

To answer your question earlier, yeah I was thinking more along the lines of the Seven Year's War. my bad :eek:

I suppose I should clarify somewhat. Against Austria, Prussia had only herself and some minor German allies (Mecklenburg, Saxe, etc). That's it. This is before the formation of the North German Confederation - whose members were duty-bound to join Prussia in a fight - and the backdoor deals with the southern German states - who had been coaxed by Bismarck into agreeing to defend fellow Germans.

Prussia alone had a much better reserves system. Their standing army was smaller, but they could get their reserves into action far more quickly than either the French or Austrians. Indeed, the Austrians literally took weeks. Some units in the Seven Weeks' War had only just arrived at their units when the war was over. This is due to posting units far from their homelands so the troops might not take part in revolts - but France didn't have this issue. She simply had a 400,000 man standing army in 1870 compared to Prussia's 300,000 (including allies if I'm not mistaken). However, the Prussian reservists were all within about an hour or so from their units. This means that within a few days they could be on the way to the frontlines.

Something else has to do with conscription. Due to von Roon, Prussia had universal conscription. Something neither France nor Austria could hope to perform in the 1860s/70s due to their internal politics. So Prussia will be initially out-gunned, but as she boasted in 1870, he reserves would carry the day. This doesn't even take into account the general quality of troops or officers.

Suffice to say that if the war were to kick off sometime in the 1860s/70s - depending on the situation and what sort of deals Prussia had lined up - she would be vastly outnumbered alone... at least at the start. She might be able to pull back up, particularly since it doesn't seem that Austria had any sort of reasonable commanders - and those they did have were ignored, but then she would be playing on her own turf, defending her legitimacy to all German states, and so forth.
 
Well, Lombardia and Venetia for 1860 were part of the Habsburg Empire(Second war of 'italian independance') and they lose Lombardia when the french give support to Italy in their way to try to have italy as vassal(who backfire twice spectaculary), ditto in 1866 with Venetia.. and later all the belle epoque rumbling of 'liberate' the 'Irredentia' of Trento, Trieste and Dalmatia(when in the second and later were more italian speaking slavs for monetary reasons that italians), and a long etc.....

Well not waiting a flame war... In general any war with france east of the moselle demands general intervention(the spectre of Napoleon)

I objected to your chosen word (stealing:mad:). Italy was carved out at the congress of Vienna, and afterwards the Austrians acted as repressive policemen, intervening in a heavy handed way every time there was a demand for liberalization and a constitution.
The "italian-speaking slavs" you mention were the same that were german-speaking slavs under Austria, and before that venetian-speaking slavs under the Most Seren Republic: IMHO, your point is not very well made. I will add that the culture in Dalmatia was always Italian, at least until the end of WW2 and the ethnic cleansing that followed. Nowadays Croats try to paint everything with a nationalistic brush, but history can not be easily changed. Unless you live in a 1984 TL :rolleyes:

The only point on which we may agree is that Napoleon III did not intervene in 1859 out of the goodness of his heart, but with the aim of replacing the Austrian dominance in Italy with a French one. It obviously misfired, and Nappy got back what he sowed.
 
Top