Francis I of Austria has a son by his first wife

Francis I of Austria and his wife Elisabeth of Wuttermburg were married in 1789, and Elisabeth gave birth to a premature daughter in 1790. My query for you all is this, what changes if Elisabeth gives birth to a son, who survives into adulthood? Would Francis marry again if Elisabeth died, to secure the succession, and to the same woman he did otl? If Elisabeth doesn't die do Francis and Elisabeth have the possibility for more children?
 
Francis I of Austria and his wife Elisabeth of Wuttermburg were married in 1789, and Elisabeth gave birth to a premature daughter in 1790. My query for you all is this, what changes if Elisabeth gives birth to a son, who survives into adulthood? Would Francis marry again if Elisabeth died, to secure the succession, and to the same woman he did otl? If Elisabeth doesn't die do Francis and Elisabeth have the possibility for more children?

Elisabeth went into prem labour when she was exposed to the sight of the dying Josef II apparently. Keep her away from the death chamber. WTF was she doing there I'd like to know since the bedside of a dying sovereign was the place for priests not princes. To give an idea of this, when Anne of Austria lay dying, Louis XIV dismissed the courtiers crowding her saying "sirs, we have no more time for flattery". And another monarch (might have been Louis XIV as well) also dismissed the courtiers saying "sirs leave me to my doctor, my priests and to God".

Either way, the chances that Franz II would have a half brood of retards (its funny but I've never read that his brother, the grand duke of Tuscany, who likewise married a double first cousin, had any "slow" children like the emperor did) are slim. If there IS/ARE mentally challenged kids its not due to inbreeding. And if we look at Elisabeth, if she doesn't die in childbed, there's no reason she can't pop out kids like her sister, the Russian empress did, so ~10 archdukes/duchesses.

An interesting fact is that Maria Teresa of Naples HATED the memory of her predecessor (she had several rows with Alexandra Pavlovna when that girl came to court, since she resembled Elisabeth so much. Well, for that reason and because the jewels Alexandra came with from Russia were finer than hers. However, according to Alexandra's marriage contract there were jewels that had been Elisabeth's which were to pass to Alexandra, which Maria Teresa also refused to turn over). Madame Royal HATED Maria Teresa during her time in Vienna since the Empress always reminded MR of how she was indebted to Franz and that MR should be soooo grateful for getting Maria Teresa's cast off clothing/jewels/whatever. Elisabeth seems to have been a much sweeter personality.

Another interesting thing that a surviving Elisabeth might change would be the clause in the house laws of the Habsburgs that specifies the Emperor could only marry a Catholic. Elisabeth wasn't born Catholic and AFAIK only converted AFTER her marriage to Franz. But then again, Franz wasn't the emperor at the time of the marriage. But this was one of the stumbling blocks for why Berlin refused to consider a match between FJ and Anna of Prussia.
 
Elisabeth went into prem labour when she was exposed to the sight of the dying Josef II apparently. Keep her away from the death chamber. WTF was she doing there I'd like to know since the bedside of a dying sovereign was the place for priests not princes. To give an idea of this, when Anne of Austria lay dying, Louis XIV dismissed the courtiers crowding her saying "sirs, we have no more time for flattery". And another monarch (might have been Louis XIV as well) also dismissed the courtiers saying "sirs leave me to my doctor, my priests and to God".

Either way, the chances that Franz II would have a half brood of retards (its funny but I've never read that his brother, the grand duke of Tuscany, who likewise married a double first cousin, had any "slow" children like the emperor did) are slim. If there IS/ARE mentally challenged kids its not due to inbreeding. And if we look at Elisabeth, if she doesn't die in childbed, there's no reason she can't pop out kids like her sister, the Russian empress did, so ~10 archdukes/duchesses.

An interesting fact is that Maria Teresa of Naples HATED the memory of her predecessor (she had several rows with Alexandra Pavlovna when that girl came to court, since she resembled Elisabeth so much. Well, for that reason and because the jewels Alexandra came with from Russia were finer than hers. However, according to Alexandra's marriage contract there were jewels that had been Elisabeth's which were to pass to Alexandra, which Maria Teresa also refused to turn over). Madame Royal HATED Maria Teresa during her time in Vienna since the Empress always reminded MR of how she was indebted to Franz and that MR should be soooo grateful for getting Maria Teresa's cast off clothing/jewels/whatever. Elisabeth seems to have been a much sweeter personality.

Another interesting thing that a surviving Elisabeth might change would be the clause in the house laws of the Habsburgs that specifies the Emperor could only marry a Catholic. Elisabeth wasn't born Catholic and AFAIK only converted AFTER her marriage to Franz. But then again, Franz wasn't the emperor at the time of the marriage. But this was one of the stumbling blocks for why Berlin refused to consider a match between FJ and Anna of Prussia.

Yeah that is quite fucked up, why was she there aha?

And this is very true, ten children, five boys, five girls perhaps, to make things interesting?

And hmm interesting, could she convince Francis to change that?

What would the name of their son be? Joseph, in honour of a previous Emperor?
 
They could just as easily name the kid Friedrich after her dad, I guess. But Josef will be amongst the names.

Hmm interesting, the long winded names continue then aha.

So we'd have:

Freidrich Jospeph (b.1790)

Karl Ludwig (b. 1793)

Maria Lusia (b.1794)

Ferdinand Francis (b. 1796)

Sophie Amalie (b.1798)

Ludovika Elisabeth (b.1800)

Carloine Jospheine (b. 1803)

Wilhlem (b. 1805)
 
Hmm interesting, the long winded names continue then aha.

So we'd have:

Freidrich Jospeph (b.1790)

Karl Ludwig (b. 1793)

Maria Lusia (b.1794)

Ferdinand Francis (b. 1796)

Sophie Amalie (b.1798)

Ludovika Elisabeth (b.1800)

Carloine Jospheine (b. 1803)

Wilhlem (b. 1805)

Just take an OTL schedule for Franz's kids and adjust the names accordingly. Franz had four boys (Ferdinand, Josef Franz, Franz Karl and Johann Nepomuk) and 8 girls by his second wife.

So more like:

Stillborn Child (b.1790) lets face it this is a prem baby in the 18th century. There's a 50/50 chance it dies in delivery vs surviving

Marie Luise Friederike Karoline Auguste Christine (she's named after Franz's mom, don't see the name changing) (b.1791)

Friedrich Wilhelm Karl Leopold Josef Franz (b.1793)

Maria ELISABETH Charlotte Georgine Friederike Sophie Theresia (b.1794)

Mara SOPHIE Charlotte Friederike Amalie Alexandrine (b.1795)

Maria LEOPOLDINE Josephine Karoline Elisabeth Luise (she's named after Franz's dadso again not seeing a change in first name) (b.1797)

Maria KLEMENTINE Charlotte Theresia Henriëtte Luise Pauline (named after Franz's sister) (b.1798)

JOSEF Georg Friedrich Ernst Karl (b.1799)

Maria KAROLINE Luise Friederike Amalie Wilhelmine (b.1801)

FRANZ Friedrich Karl Leopold Georg Heinrich (b.1802)

MARIA ANNA Elisabeth Alexandrine Friederike Wilhelmine (b.1804)

KARL FRIEDRICH Ludwig Wilhelm Maximilian August (b.1806)

Maria AMALIE THERESIA Karoline Josefa Antonia (b.1807)

I figure Maria Feodorovna and Paul only lost one child in infancy, so you can take your pick of which one you'd like to be rid of.

For one, Franz II likely has more pawns to play with on the European chessboard than OTL ( what with his daughters not being retarded or stuffed in convents or making undesireable matches like OTL). And two, Austria does better with no regency for a mentally challenged emperor. Plus three, there's a good chance that the Imperial family tree (even if the boys marry their OTL spouses, not sure who sons #3&4 could wed though) is looking a lot more lush come the 1820s/1830s
 
Just take an OTL schedule for Franz's kids and adjust the names accordingly. Franz had four boys (Ferdinand, Josef Franz, Franz Karl and Johann Nepomuk) and 8 girls by his second wife.

So more like:

Stillborn Child (b.1790) lets face it this is a prem baby in the 18th century. There's a 50/50 chance it dies in delivery vs surviving

Marie Luise Friederike Karoline Auguste Christine (she's named after Franz's mom, don't see the name changing) (b.1791)

Friedrich Wilhelm Karl Leopold Josef Franz (b.1793)

Maria ELISABETH Charlotte Georgine Friederike Sophie Theresia (b.1794)

Mara SOPHIE Charlotte Friederike Amalie Alexandrine (b.1795)

Maria LEOPOLDINE Josephine Karoline Elisabeth Luise (she's named after Franz's dadso again not seeing a change in first name) (b.1797)

Maria KLEMENTINE Charlotte Theresia Henriëtte Luise Pauline (named after Franz's sister) (b.1798)

JOSEF Georg Friedrich Ernst Karl (b.1799)

Maria KAROLINE Luise Friederike Amalie Wilhelmine (b.1801)

FRANZ Friedrich Karl Leopold Georg Heinrich (b.1802)

MARIA ANNA Elisabeth Alexandrine Friederike Wilhelmine (b.1804)

KARL FRIEDRICH Ludwig Wilhelm Maximilian August (b.1806)

Maria AMALIE THERESIA Karoline Josefa Antonia (b.1807)

I figure Maria Feodorovna and Paul only lost one child in infancy, so you can take your pick of which one you'd like to be rid of.

For one, Franz II likely has more pawns to play with on the European chessboard than OTL ( what with his daughters not being retarded or stuffed in convents or making undesireable matches like OTL). And two, Austria does better with no regency for a mentally challenged emperor. Plus three, there's a good chance that the Imperial family tree (even if the boys marry their OTL spouses, not sure who sons #3&4 could wed though) is looking a lot more lush come the 1820s/1830s
Very very true, which means Austria is going to do well. Frederick I imagine would be quite conservative like his father, if perhPs more open to discussion about things
 
Very very true, which means Austria is going to do well. Frederick I imagine would be quite conservative like his father, if perhPs more open to discussion about things

Franz's whole conservatism is debatable. He was more along the lines of the enlightened despot of the pre-Revolutionary era. He wasn't, by my understanding, @Neptune may know more, conservative along the lines of Charles X in France. More like Louis XVIII, he wasn't a fan of reform unless he had no other option, but he was open to compromise. He was also more accessible to his people than some other rulers of the day were (he used to set two/three days a week aside where his subjects could show up and voice grievances IIRC).
 
I found this about Franz. No one can call him a liberal by any stretch of the imagination, but he's more like Louis XVIII than Charles X:

As a man and as a monarch, Emperor Francis I was probably unlike what most would suppose him to be. For enemies of the Austrian Empire he is often portrayed as a harsh, reactionary tyrant, paranoid and militaristic, cold and calculating. In fact, he was a complex man who understood the enormous responsibility he had as monarch and who tried to always do what was best, not for the sake of popular opinion but as a sacred duty. It is true that he had a very active and extensive secret police and his policies would today be seen as restrictive. They were certainly illiberal but no more so than many that exist in Europe today, the only difference being who they were aimed at stopping and the fact that, unlike modern European leaders, Emperor Francis never claimed to a liberal. His network of spies and use of censorship was a reaction to the horror and world war that came with the French Revolution and he was determined to prevent such words, ideas or movements ever gaining a foothold in the Austrian Empire. Much of Europe today has laws just as restrictive but where Francis banned “revolutionary rhetoric” or “egalitarian” or “anti-religious” and “republican” talk, today what is banned is called “hate speech” or “racist” or in some way offensive and “politically incorrect” talk. His ban on all things Jacobin could be compared to the current ban in Germany on all things Nazi and would be defended on the same grounds; that some ideas are too dangerous to tolerate.


To the charge of being a reactionary (which not everyone would consider a bad thing) Emperor Francis was more nuanced than most realize. He was certainly a man of very traditional and staunchly conservative politics but neither was he a radical legitimist. He favored policies which were as conservative as possible but was never so ideologically zealous as to hinder his pragmatism. This was partly why he opposed nationalism, because it interfered with the sort of monarchial territorial horse-trading that could benefit his empire. So, he had no qualms about northern Italy being absorbed by the Austrian Empire rather than being restored to Venice and he was more supportive of the King of the French, Louis Philippe, than the very traditional King Charles X of France whose policies, though the Emperor was probably sympathetic to, he feared were impractical and could lead to another revolution and potential trouble for the rest of Europe.

Although he famously said that he had no knowledge of “the people” but only “subjects” he was not some distant, aloof sort of autocrat as he is often portrayed. Each week he set aside two half-days to meet with any of his subjects, whether high born or low, who made an appointment to see him. He would listen to their opinions or concerns and was able to converse with them in their own language, no matter what part of his polyglot realms they came from. In that way he was more accessible to the public than just about any republican president in any European country today (or most in the rest of the world at large for that matter). In a way, he inherited qualities from both of his immediate predecessors. From his father, who it was said ran the most successful secret police force in the world as Grand Duke of Tuscany, he had a talent at keeping himself well informed about what was going on within his empire and from his uncle Joseph II he had the ability to talk easily to anyone, be they prince or ploughman.
 
So, if Friedrich has half a brain he'd probably learn from dad, maybe be a smidge further along the liberal scale. I mean he DOES grow up during the French Revolutionary Wars, his sister IS still most likely wed to Napoleon etc. I don't say Freddie will be the German second coming of Napoléon, but it'd be hard to do worse than Austria did OTL
 
So, if Friedrich has half a brain he'd probably learn from dad, maybe be a smidge further along the liberal scale. I mean he DOES grow up during the French Revolutionary Wars, his sister IS still most likely wed to Napoleon etc. I don't say Freddie will be the German second coming of Napoléon, but it'd be hard to do worse than Austria did OTL
Alright I quite like that. Friedrich being somewhat like his father in accessibility and perhaps also being more willing to support certain freedoms within reason. Would he marry Maria Anna of savoy ? Or elsewhere?
 
Just take an OTL schedule for Franz's kids and adjust the names accordingly. Franz had four boys (Ferdinand, Josef Franz, Franz Karl and Johann Nepomuk) and 8 girls by his second wife.

So more like:

Stillborn Child (b.1790) lets face it this is a prem baby in the 18th century. There's a 50/50 chance it dies in delivery vs surviving

Marie Luise Friederike Karoline Auguste Christine (she's named after Franz's mom, don't see the name changing) (b.1791)

Friedrich Wilhelm Karl Leopold Josef Franz (b.1793)

Maria ELISABETH Charlotte Georgine Friederike Sophie Theresia (b.1794)

Mara SOPHIE Charlotte Friederike Amalie Alexandrine (b.1795)

Maria LEOPOLDINE Josephine Karoline Elisabeth Luise (she's named after Franz's dadso again not seeing a change in first name) (b.1797)

Maria KLEMENTINE Charlotte Theresia Henriëtte Luise Pauline (named after Franz's sister) (b.1798)


Thank you very much in keeping Maria leopoldina,she was vital to Brazilian independance!
 
Well,he became emperor because Leopoldina conspired and comitted treason against Portugal,she was a huge Brazilian patriot,not shure why,and it was her political vision for a united brazilian monarchy,not Pedro´s,at least not originaly,so yeah,Brazil needs Dona Leopoldina a lot! Pedro I was in doubt and wanted to obey the Portuguese order to go back to Portugal,it was Dona Leopoldina who was dead set against it,even using her pregnancy as a reason not to leave Brazil.Remember,we still use the Habsburg yellow in our flag!
 
Well,he became emperor because Leopoldina conspired and comitted treason against Portugal,she was a huge Brazilian patriot,not shure why,and it was her political vision for a united brazilian monarchy,not Pedro´s,at least not originaly,so yeah,Brazil needs Dona Leopoldina a lot! Pedro I was in doubt and wanted to obey the Portuguese order to go back to Portugal,it was Dona Leopoldina who was dead set against it,even using her pregnancy as a reason not to leave Brazil.Remember,we still use the Habsburg yellow in our flag!
This is very true. Pedro as emperor would be good, leaves questions aboutmportugal though
 
Francis I of Austria and his wife Elisabeth of Wuttermburg were married in 1789, and Elisabeth gave birth to a premature daughter in 1790. My query for you all is this, what changes if Elisabeth gives birth to a son, who survives into adulthood? Would Francis marry again if Elisabeth died, to secure the succession, and to the same woman he did otl? If Elisabeth doesn't die do Francis and Elisabeth have the possibility for more children?
Elisabeth died in chilbirth but her daughter, Archduchess Ludovika Elisabeth (after her paternal grandmother and mother) survived and died only when she had 16 months...
Elisabeth was choised by Emperor Joseph while Maria Theresa was choised by Leopold so yes, if Elisabeth give birth to a son and still die Francis will be quickly married to Maria Theresa as OTL
 
Elisabeth died in chilbirth but her daughter, Archduchess Ludovika Elisabeth (after her paternal grandmother and mother) survived and died only when she had 16 months...
Elisabeth was choised by Emperor Joseph while Maria Theresa was choised by Leopold so yes, if Elisabeth give birth to a son and still die Francis will be quickly married to Maria Theresa as OTL
And if she survives what happens to Maria Theresa
 
And if she survives what happens to Maria Theresa

You can be sure that her mother, Maria Karoline, is going to scheme scheme scheme to get her daughter married. Most likely, a match with her OTL brother-in-law the Grand Duke of Tuscany, Maria Luisa of Naples was offered for Grand Duke Konstantin Pavlovich at one point (though I don't think it was ever taken seriously). Which then leaves Maria Luisa without a chair, maybe she weds Carlo Felice of Savoy? IIRC, his older brother, Vittorio Emanuele I, was originally considered as a possible husband for three of Maria Theresia's granddaughters - Maria Teresa of Tuscany (OTL queen of Saxony), Maria Teresa d'Este (his OTL wife) and Maria Teresa of Naples (Karoline rejected the offer out of hand, saying her eldest daughter could do better than a mere duke's younger brother). Perhaps she's more willing to agree that he weds Maria Luisa. Otherwise, most likely, Maria Teresa to Ferdinando III and Maria Luisa to the duke of Teschen, sounds about right.
 
You can be sure that her mother, Maria Karoline, is going to scheme scheme scheme to get her daughter married. Most likely, a match with her OTL brother-in-law the Grand Duke of Tuscany, Maria Luisa of Naples was offered for Grand Duke Konstantin Pavlovich at one point (though I don't think it was ever taken seriously). Which then leaves Maria Luisa without a chair, maybe she weds Carlo Felice of Savoy? IIRC, his older brother, Vittorio Emanuele I, was originally considered as a possible husband for three of Maria Theresia's granddaughters - Maria Teresa of Tuscany (OTL queen of Saxony), Maria Teresa d'Este (his OTL wife) and Maria Teresa of Naples (Karoline rejected the offer out of hand, saying her eldest daughter could do better than a mere duke's younger brother). Perhaps she's more willing to agree that he weds Maria Luisa. Otherwise, most likely, Maria Teresa to Ferdinando III and Maria Luisa to the duke of Teschen, sounds about right.
Alright interesting :)
 
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