Francis Duke of Berry, son of Louis XI survives.

Jan Olbracht

As title says-youngest son of King Spider has not died in 1473 aged just over year. Assuming minimal butterflies (deaths of Francis of Brittany and Charles VIII were results of accidents, but it doesn't mean it is still not possible for them to die in 1488 and 1498 for whatever reason) what would be consequences? François de Berry died to young to give us any clue about his personality, although usually there was not much love between Valois Kings of France and their brothers. Still, it would not be problem during first years of Charles VIII's reign, when both sons of Louis XI would still be underaged, so Mad Wars would not change much. For Charles VIII conquest of Naples was main goal of his reign, so he would try to ensure brother's loyalty (some valuable apanage?), perhaps François would partialy take role of OTL Louis d'Orléans/Louis XII? Assuming Charles VIII is still married with Anne of Brittany (with results similar to OTL-miscarriages and short living children), what would happen with her after Charles' death? Remarriage with brother-in-law would be complicated (Anne can't claim that marriage was not consumated) and perhaps impossible (Francis could be married already before 1498-with whom?)
 
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JonasResende

JonasResende

Jan Olbracht said:
As title says-youngest son of King Spider has not died in 1473 aged just over year. Assuming minimal butterflies (deaths of Francis of Brittany and Charles VIII were results of accidents, but it doesn't mean it is still not impossible for them to die in 1488 and 1498 for whatever reason) what would be consequences? François de Berry died to young to give us any clue about his personality, although usually there was not much love between Valois Kings of France and their brothers. Still, it would not be problem during first years of Charles VIII's reign, when both sons of Louis XI would still be underaged, so Mad Wars would not change much. For Charles VIII conquest of Naples was main goal of his reign, so he would try to ensure brother's loyalty (some valuable apanage?), perhaps François would partialy take role of OTL Louis d'Orléans/Louis XII? Assuming Charles VIII is still married with Anne of Brittany (with results similar to OTL-miscarriages and short living children), what would happen with her after Charles' death? Remarriage with brother-in-law would be complicated (Anne can't claim that marriage was not consumated) and perhaps impossible (Francis could be married already before 1498-with whom?)
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I don't think we'll see the near fratricidal sibling rivalry of Louis XI and his brother. There was a pretty big age gap. Here, Charles and François would probably have the same childhood tutors and experiences. Maybe more Louis XIV-Monsieur type relationship? (Without François being feminized though).

As to a marriage partner, what about he gets Margarethe of Austria when Charles jilts her. They've grown up together a la Henry VIII-Katherine of Aragon
 

Jan Olbracht

JonasResende said:
As to a marriage partner, what about he gets Margarethe of Austria when Charles jilts her. They've grown up together a la Henry VIII-Katherine of Aragon
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What would Max say about it?
I also considered Anne de Foix and Louise of Savoy-also raised at French court.
 

isabella

JonasResende said:
I don't think we'll see the near fratricidal sibling rivalry of Louis XI and his brother. There was a pretty big age gap. Here, Charles and François would probably have the same childhood tutors and experiences. Maybe more Louis XIV-Monsieur type relationship? (Without François being feminized though).

As to a marriage partner, what about he gets Margarethe of Austria when Charles jilts her. They've grown up together a la Henry VIII-Katherine of Aragon
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Maybe Francis can marry directly Anne of Brittany instead of his brother who will so be able to keep the engagement with Margaret, the alliance and her lands (because also the dowry of Margaret included lands who the French wanted).
So Margaret will become Queen of France, Francis Duke of Brittany and when Charles will die without children Francis and Anne will be the new King and Queen (and likely have a son or two to follow them).
I think both Anne and her father would have much less trouble to accept her engagement to the second son/younger brother of the king than to the Dauphin/King. OTL Anne's father was willing to take in consideration Orleans as husband for he so the Duke of Berry is not impossible
 
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Kynan

Kynan

It’s more likely that Anne of Brittany still marries Charles VIII, and either Margaret of Austria is sent back as OTL or, as she’s already in France’s possession, she’s married to Francis, Duke of Berry and there’s fall out from that.
 

Jan Olbracht

isabella said:
Maybe Francis can marry directly Anne of Brittany instead of his brother who will so be able to keep the engagement with Margaret, the alliance and her lands (because also the dowry of Margaret included lands who the French wanted).
So Margaret will become Queen of France, Francis Duke of Brittany and when Charles will die without children Francis and Anne will be the new King and Queen (and likely have a son or two to follow them).
I think both Anne and her father would have much less trouble to accept her engagement to the second son/younger brother of the king than to the Dauphin/King. OTL Anne's father was willing to take in consideration Orleans as husband for he so the Duke of Berry is not impossible
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That would be likely solution if Francis of Brittany lives at least untill 1492 and dies when Charles VIII is already married to Margaret.
 

isabella

Kynan said:
It’s more likely that Anne of Brittany still marries Charles VIII, and either Margaret of Austria is sent back as OTL or, as she’s already in France’s possession, she’s married to Francis, Duke of Berry and there’s fall out from that.
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Jan Olbracht said:
That would be likely solution if Francis of Brittany lives at least untill 1492 and dies when Charles VIII is already married to Margaret.
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I think who considering who the main interest of Francis, Duke of Brittany was preserving the autonomy and most important the indipendence of his Duchy from the French Crown and he had lost the war against France an engagement between his heiress Anne and Francis, duke of Berrry at the time of the treaty of Sable (maybe instead of the OTL clause who subjected the weddings of both Anne and Isabelle to the approval of the King of France) was something at least tolerable for him.
 
JonasResende

JonasResende

isabella said:
I think who considering who the main interest of Francis, Duke of Brittany was preserving the autonomy and most important the indipendence of his Duchy from the French Crown and he had lost the war against France an engagement between his heiress Anne and Francis, duke of Berrry at the time of the treaty of Sable (maybe instead of the OTL clause who subjected the weddings of both Anne and Isabelle to the approval of the King of France) was something at least tolerable for him.
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Maybe Isabeau to the dauphin and Anne to the duc de Berri.

Another option for the duc de Berri (which was apparently considered for Charles - though when I'm not sure) if Charles marries Anne and Maximilian won't consent to François marrying Margarethe, is Charlotte of Naples. She was IN France at the time IIRC.
 

isabella

JonasResende said:
Maybe Isabeau to the dauphin and Anne to the duc de Berri.

Another option for the duc de Berri (which was apparently considered for Charles - though when I'm not sure) if Charles marries Anne and Maximilian won't consent to François marrying Margarethe, is Charlotte of Naples. She was IN France at the time IIRC.
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Charles at the time of the treaty of Sable was already King and engaged to Margaret of Austria so unavailable, here he has a younger and unattached brother who looks like the perfect solution for resolving the problem of Brittany (I am also pretty sure who the contract will be worded with Isabelle as replacement for Anne if she die before the wedding just for being safe)
 

isabella

Jan Olbracht said:
What would you say about her:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeanne_de_Bourbon,_Duchess_of_Bourbon
For François? Seven years older than him, but known for her beauty and charm.
They could marry around 1490 and would have kids likely. Thus François would not be able to marry Anne of Brittany once Charles VIII dies, so what would happen with her?
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I still think who Anne will be married to Francis (likely engaged to him after her father’s defeat with the clause who Isabeau will replace her if she died early) and Charles will keep his engagement to Margaret of Burgundy as only the necessity to prevent absolutely the Habsburg inheritance of Brittany caused the breakup of a very good match for Charles (as she had a very good dowry including some disputed lands for which Louis XI had fight a lot)...

Jeanne is a little too old for him, Charlotte of Naples or either his cousin Catherine of Navarre or one of her eldest daughters more likely choices
 
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Jan Olbracht

isabella said:
I still think who Anne will be married to Francis (likely engaged to him after her father’s defeat with the clause who Isabeau will replace her if she died early) and Charles will keep his engagement to Margaret of Burgundy as only the necessity to prevent absolutely the Habsburg inheritance of Brittany caused the breakup of a very good match for Charles (as she had a very good dowry including some disputed lands for which Louis XI had fight a lot)...

Jeanne is a little too old for him, Charlotte of Naples or either his cousin Catherine of Navarre or one of her eldest daughters more likely choices
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If Anne of Brittany is not married to King but to his brother, there is a risk of new strong Valois cadet branch emerging and causing troubles (like Valois-Burgundy) so I'm not sure it would be preffered solution.
 

isabella

Jan Olbracht said:
If Anne of Brittany is not married to King but to his brother, there is a risk of new strong Valois cadet branch emerging and causing troubles (like Valois-Burgundy) so I'm not sure it would be preffered solution.
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Well, better that than risking a wedding between Anne and some sure enemy like Maximilian or renouncing to the prize of Louis XI’s wars in Burgundy... Margaret was a very prestigious bride with an important dowry in lands and other... the only valid reason for renouncing to her would be preventing the Habsburg’s encirclement who will caused by a wedding between Anne and Maximilian of Austria...
Plus with a younger brother unattached and available, is likely who Anne of Beaujeu will impose to the Duke of Brittany an engagement between Francis, Duke of Berry and Anne of Brittany in the peace after the Mad War...
 
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