France with a Rhine Border

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How could France obtain and keep a border at the Rhine until the modern day? What effects would this have on the country's development? What about internationally?
 
One thing is for certain: if France has a Rhine border, it will have much more industrial capability. Thus, it would probably become the superior industrial nation on the European continent, even in the face of a united Germany sans the Rhineland, which would at most be on par with France. Of course, though, I doubt a France with the Rhineland would ever allow a united Germany...
 
Have Germany lose World War I and give Alsace back to France. Then if France can assimilate the region well enough and/or come out on the winning side of any future German conflicts, the border on the Rhine there should be safe from any annexations of the 1871 sort.
 
One thing is for certain: if France has a Rhine border, it will have much more industrial capability. Thus, it would probably become the superior industrial nation on the European continent, even in the face of a united Germany sans the Rhineland, which would at most be on par with France. Of course, though, I doubt a France with the Rhineland would ever allow a united Germany...

Especially if they can get their hands on Belgium. Serious industry to work with there.
 
Depends on when France achieves permanent ownership of the region. If fairly early (any time before 1850, I'd guess), then France's almost constant OTL belligerence and expansionism becomes even more powerful and threatening to everyone in Europe.

Other nations will be even more likely to league against her. If a unified Germany is ever to form, it can only be as a consequence of a League defeating France and establishing a unified Germany as a counterbalance to contain France (the French will never allow it otherwise. Ever.)

Then Germans get the honor of bleeding on behalf of the rest of Europe. France will now be the perceived bad boy of Europe. Indeed, I question whether France will, in the long run, be allowed to keep A-L under these circumstances.
 
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How could France obtain and keep a border at the Rhine until the modern day? What effects would this have on the country's development? What about internationally?

Unless some marriage arrangement between future Louis XII and Mary of Burgundy has France get the Valois Low Countries, the earliest France could decently home to reach the Rhine border would be late 17th century.

Now if you consider the effects of France reaching this Rhine border in a monarchic dynastic regime, it will rather cool it down than increase its appetite.
It Will change nothing to France's demographic slowdown.

And if you go in the industrial age, it will just give France the heavy industry capacities that it missed so much to balance Germany. The problem of Europe is that the treaty of Vienna had given too much industrial power into Germany's borders, and especially to Prussia. Which it could know sincère there had been no industrial take-off at that time except in Britain.
 
Now if you consider the effects of France reaching this Rhine border in a monarchic dynastic regime, it will rather cool it down than increase its appetite.
It Will change nothing to France's demographic slowdown.

And if you go in the industrial age, it will just give France the heavy industry capacities that it missed so much to balance Germany. The problem of Europe is that the treaty of Vienna had given too much industrial power into Germany's borders, and especially to Prussia. Which it could know sincère there had been no industrial take-off at that time except in Britain.

Why exactly will gaining the Rhine suddenly make France's monarchy non-expansionary?

What were the causes of France's demographic slowdown? Was it truly inevitable?

And I'm a little unclear what the framers of the Congress of Vienna were supposed to do to prevent "too much industrial power" going to the disunited German polities (where that potential was already located): scorch the earth to devastate German potential? arbitrarily give huge chunks of German territories to France (whose power had already been a crucial problem for European peace)? give Austria territories it couldn't hold? punish the German polities financially to prevent future growth? disembowel the Prussia which had contributed in the war against Napoleon? What would you recommend?
 
Unless some marriage arrangement between future Louis XII and Mary of Burgundy has France get the Valois Low Countries, the earliest France could decently home to reach the Rhine border would be late 17th century.

Or you could have Mary be born a male instead, and have the Burgundy-Valois line inherit France later.
 
France could still conclude peace in a strong position in 1813. It was its defeat at Leipzig that made it lose its post 1803 conquests.

But in no way is Westphalia going to be annexed to France. Nobody in France ever wanted it.

The holding of the hanoverian coast was itself a temporary provision in the logic of the continental blockade. Not handing it over in a global settlement would be a nonsense.



Why exactly will gaining the Rhine suddenly make France's monarchy non-expansionary?

What were the causes of France's demographic slowdown? Was it truly inevitable?

And I'm a little unclear what the framers of the Congress of Vienna were supposed to do to prevent "too much industrial power" going to the disunited German polities (where that potential was already located): scorch the earth to devastate German potential? arbitrarily give huge chunks of German territories to France (whose power had already been a crucial problem for European peace)? give Austria territories it couldn't hold? punish the German polities financially to prevent future growth? disembowel the Prussia which had contributed in the war against Napoleon? What would you recommend?

Gaining the Rhine would cal down France because it had been one of its strategic goals for some 150 years. In fact, France holding Rhineland was not that important to any other european power except for Britain, though Britain had to a certain extent been ready to accept the Rhine frontier if Napoleon stopped expanding.
Going further would be a source of multiple problems, among which having too many german people inside the kingdom.

The causes of the french demographic slowdown are quite specific and remain in part mysterious.
There are several hypothesis.
That the french were the first to give more importance to "relative" children welfare which led them to have some kind of birth control.
The fact that the french did not like to migrate (I mean much less than others), which led them to birth control.
The fact that the legal system enforced by the french revolution, with the principle of inheritance equality, drove many people to limit the birthrate in order to leave not to small heritance. This last point being very debatable since Britanny had a very high birthrate after the french revolution.
Maybe if the french had kept their north american colonies at the end of the 7 years war, they would have realized all the incentives and interests to go and leave in America.
 
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