France vs Britain in WW1

Let's say somehow France and Britain fought against each other, either in WW1 or an equivalent war, how would it proceed given they both have extensive colonies? Would Britain conquer most of it thanks to it's navy, or is there somewhere France has a good chance or even advantage?
 
The French weren't stupid and knew they wouldn't be able to defeat Britain and would likely lose all their best colonies should they go to war. That's why they backed down during the Fashoda Incident in 1898.
 
You need a savvier Germany who focuses on her real threats, i.e. France and Russia. If they had simply maintained a French level fleet and built up their army, they could have gained an alliance with Britain. After all, Britain's principal colonial rivals were also France and Russia.

To make the sides even...perhaps the UK, Germany, Italy, the Ottomans, Japan and Bulgaria vs. France, Russia, Austria-Hungary, Romania, and Serbia
 
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Have a different result to the 1870 war

Up until then France (the 2nd French Empire) was engaged in a naval arms race with the UK

It was the reason for the construction of the then modern fortifications around Portsmouth (the Palmerston Follies) of which Fort Nelson still exists (as a museum) as there was a real fear that the French would make a suprise landing in Southampton and take Portsmouth from the landward side before the British army (mostly based around London) could mobilise and march on them.

Of course by the time they were finished Nap III had been defeated by the Germans, the 2nd French Empire had fallen and been replaced by the 3rd Republic and Palmerston was much derided for wasting so much money on the forts.

If this had not happened and the 2nd Empire still existed in the early 20th C then it is possible that the unification of Germany did not happen or that it happened later and France remained the main rival to the UK and the dominant power in Europe.

I was playing the computer game "Rule the Waves" last year and had the most amazingly and suprisingly 1 sided battle in the Western approches during 1907 or thereabouts when the British and French fleets clashed in a heavy rain storm which suddenly lifted ultimately resulting all 10 French BBs and all 7 of her BCs as well as 9 of 10 CLs and 24 of 30 DDs sunk for the loss of 3 British BBs (out of 11) , 1 BC (out of 10) and 2 CL (out of 5) sunk.

A 2nd Trafalger.

I had to come up with a whole back story narrative which was that newly crowned Napoleon V (this assuming a continued 2nd French Empire) seeking to defeat the newly formed fledgling German Empire to cement his rule and ensure French dominance first moved to give a knockout blow to the RN (with Britain supporting the new Empire as a foil to the growing Russian Empire) before turning on the New German nation on land.

Seeing the annual Royal Navy fleet manouvres as an opportunity to catch the British off guard he sent the best part of his entire fleet to attack them (planning on accusing them of using the manouvres with the most senior British admiral also a German Prince as a front for an attack on the French fleet at Brest) the leading elements of the fleet instead clashed with elements of the Home fleet in the middle of a rain squall and rapidly got the worse of the the exchange.

This allowed the suprised British Fleet to quickly recover and turn the tables

Emerging Squadron by squadron from the rain squall to face the entire RN gun line 1 squadron at a time and unable to signal a warning to those forces following them due to poor visability many French ships are rapidly crippled and with the few undamaged Battleships and BCs vainly attempting to cover the surviving cripples but only served to make themselves the target of the vengeful British fleet and abrave but suicidal attacks by the remainign French Destroyers and surviving Light Crusiers where overwhelmed by the superior numbers of larger British DDs and CAs

By nightful the battle is over and the 6 surviving French Destroyers and light Crusier Spartiate manage to reach Brest (with the heavily damaged DD Rapiere having to beach herself in the estury)

British newspapers reported the next day that Napoleon V upon hearing the news of the defeat simply exclaimed that "God is an Englishman" - although today it is widly believed that he said no such thing and it was made up by the Tabloids.

The remaining French fleet units kept in reserve to cover a cross channel invasion of Southampton aimed at landing enough troops to capture Portsmouth from landward and bring the British to the negotiating table are instead withdrawn from the channel in the face of such awful losses and the planned invasion of England does not occour.

Ultimately defeated on land by the Germans and suffering further losses and a close blockade by the Royal Navy the 2nd French Empire falls and is replaced by the 3rd French Republic in 1908.
 

Deleted member 94680

Main land effort would be in Egypt or the immediate surrounds.

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The French have plenty of troops in Algeria, but most of what else is colonial police. Same pretty much for the British with “proper” troops in Egypt and irregulars or colonials everywhere else.

The British value Egypt above all else and therefore it becomes the centre of the War Effort.


At sea, it’s pretty much a curbstomp for the British. Assuming a 1914 start and pretty much OTL fleet developments.
 
The French weren't stupid and knew they wouldn't be able to defeat Britain and would likely lose all their best colonies should they go to war. That's why they backed down during the Fashoda Incident in 1898.

Well, there's also the fact that Britain was willing to concede her economic-political position in Morocco and support France's efforts to dominate the country in exchange for her conceding to British hegemony over the Nile/Egypt-Sudan. That went a long way in getting the French to back down.
 
You need a savvier Germany who focuses on her real threats, i.e. France and Russia. If they had simply maintained a French level fleet and built up their army, they could have gained an alliance with Britain. After all, Britain's principal colonial rivals were also France and Britain.

To make the sides even...perhaps the UK, Germany, Italy, the Ottomans, Japan and Bulgaria vs. France, Russia, Austria-Hungary, Romania, and Serbia

That actually sounds quite interesting. I would like to read a TL based on that premise. And I think you meant Russia rather than Britain, Britain can not be its own rival.

A WWI with the UK, Germany, Italy, the Ottomans, Japan and Bulgaria vs. France, Russia, Austria-Hungary, Romania, and Serbia actually makes more sense than OTL. OTL was kind of a weird fluke.
 
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That actually sounds quite interesting. I would like to read a TL based on that premise. And I think you meant Russia rather than Britain, Britain can not be its own rival.

A WWI with the UK, Germany, Italy, the Ottomans, Japan and Bulgaria vs. France, Russia, Austria-Hungary, Romania, and Serbia actually makes more sense than OTL. OTL was kind of a weird fluke.
Yes, I meant Russia. Lol.
 
That actually sounds quite interesting. I would like to read a TL based on that premise. And I think you meant Russia rather than Britain, Britain can not be its own rival.

A WWI with the UK, Germany, Italy, the Ottomans, Japan and Bulgaria vs. France, Russia, Austria-Hungary, Romania, and Serbia actually makes more sense than OTL. OTL was kind of a weird fluke.

Not really, for two reasons.

1. Italy is not going to sign onto an alliance that surrounds her with enemies without sharing a border with any ally.

2. Serbia and (mostly) Romania signing onto a formal alliance with AH.

The UK, Germany, A-H, and Japan vs. France, Russia, and Italy could make for a very viable pre-war alliance model though, with minor powers signing on to one side or another depending on the exact circumstances.
 
Not really, for two reasons.

1. Italy is not going to sign onto an alliance that surrounds her with enemies without sharing a border with any ally.

2. Serbia and (mostly) Romania signing onto a formal alliance with AH.

The UK, Germany, A-H, and Japan vs. France, Russia, and Italy could make for a very viable pre-war alliance model though, with minor powers signing on to one side or another depending on the exact circumstances.
I will agree with the 2nd point.

But as for the first, Italy has claims on France and AH and her economy is dependent on coal imports that can be shut down by the Royal Navy.
 

kernals12

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I've read that in 1914, Britain was considering shifting its alliances from Russia (and hence France) to Germany. So if the war starts a little bit later, we could have them duking it out.
 
I will agree with the 2nd point.

But as for the first, Italy has claims on France and AH and her economy is dependent on coal imports that can be shut down by the Royal Navy.

They can also be shut down on the French navy, and their main industrial and economic centers in the north highly vulnerable to invasion by the French and A-H armies which vastly outnumber her and have a far superior strategic position (Which would be far more destructive). Germany is also in an alliance with A-H as a matter of course, and Italy values her claims to the east FAR more than the tiny handful to the west.
 
FillyofDelphi I agree with both points, but think they're mostly inconsequential. Italy was in chaos, in my mind, in the 30s. Idiotic claims to colonies. Nothing rational. Crazy dictators. Kind of like most of Europe at the moment, except for Certain countries, and I will not mention which ones because I don't want to get banned.

Fuck it: Bulgaria Poland Hungary the UK. Broken political systems. at least the Lib Dems got a bit of a surge in the local elections this weekend and the fucking UKIP lost almost all of their council seats. I have the right to say that the PMs of Bulgaria, the UK, Hungary and Poland are anti-democracy, and we have to say this. I am quite irritated by their behaviour.

I'm sorry to comment on that at this forum, but this is beyond normal behaviour and I just can't handle this shit anymore. Help me.
 
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FillyofDelphi I agree with both points, but think they're mostly inconsequential. Italy was in chaos, in my mind, in the 30s. Idiotic claims to colonies. Nothing rational. Crazy dictators. Kind of like most of Europe at the moment, except for Certain countries, and I will not mention which ones because I don't want to get banned.

Fuck it: Bulgaria Poland Hungary the UK. Broken political systems. at least the Lib Dems got a bit of a surge in the local elections this weekend and the fucking UKIP lost almost all of their council seats. I have the right to say that the PMs of Bulgaria, the UK, Hungary and Poland are anti-democracy, and we have to say this. I am quite irritated by their behaviour.

I'm sorry to comment on that at this forum, but this is beyond normal behaviour and I just can't handle this shit anymore. Help me.

I won't comment on the later parts, as this isen't the right place for handling those issues.

But a few points on the first: we're talking WW I, not the 30's. The Italian government may have had delusions of the extent of its capacity, and objective that didn't nessicerily corispond with long term success given its circumstances to achieve the ultimate goal they wanted, but they were rational and internally consistant if you accepted their base assumptions. The Italian government pre-WW I would still be sane enough to not make the assumption that it could fight a war with both AH and France on land with the forces it had and keep them out of its key industrial-economic regions, given the assumption pre-war by everybody that any upcoming conflict would still be one of campaigns and manuver rather than being able to see the trench warfare emerging in the future.
 
You're not going to get Russia into bed with Austria-Hungary (Bismarck tried).

A First World War where Britain is on the German side (which requires No Willy) sees France curbstomped.
 
I’ve been reading this novel from 1894 for the past few days:
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Full text on Google Books

France and Russia invade Britain in an attempt to disrupt a budding alliance between Britain, Germany, Italy, and Austria-Hungary. It’s pulpy and was an open attempt to persuade the UK to spend more on defense, but it’s entertaining and interesting in that it posits the opposite of OTL.

I’m totally stealing “The Shadow of Moloch” as the title for my WW3 TL.
 
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