France stays like this in the present day

France_1154_Eng.jpg


How would this france look like after industrialization?

How would The France divided into Eastern France+Netherlands, Angevin Empire, Toulouse(or Toulouse under Aragon) would look like in the present day.
 
Last edited:
I think nearby powers(Castille, Aragon, Spain, Burgundy, even whatever state is based in Savoy) would start nibbling first at the single states bordering France, and then at France as a whole. France wouldn't have it's historic manpower, and thus, would get a slapping much more often, and with less people overall, it actually might be easier to overimpose Cosmopolitan French culture over Gascon, Breton, etc. meaning a stronger unity(than what we have today anyway). As for industrialization, who knows? That far back, you could have Russia start industrialization.
 
Well , I'm going to bet that we'll end up with a Hapsburg dominated Europe , without the counterweight of France . We might EVEN see a Alternate France comprising of Burgundy , Ile De France , Flanders and the Netherlands.
 
Well , I'm going to bet that we'll end up with a Hapsburg dominated Europe , without the counterweight of France . We might EVEN see a Alternate France comprising of Burgundy , Ile De France , Flanders and the Netherlands.

This is what i am actually saying..

How would The France divided into Eastern France+Netherlands, Angevin Empire, Toulouse(or Toulouse under Aragon) would look like in the present day.
 
Could this result in a united Germany and a divided France?

Well the POD is 800 years ago so anything can happen, but I have my doubts. I mean, keeping the Angevin Empire together destroys the cause of English and French nationalism, and creates the very model, some might say a close to perfect model, of how to run a multi-ethnic state (far better than the Austro-Hungarian Empire or the UK with its want-away Scots/Welshmen/Irish. It's possible that other conflicts could revive the cause of nationalism, but in 1200s Europe nation-states were many centuries away from being plausible, and with such an example of multi-ethnicity without one ethnic group dominating the others (England had no control over the other states in the Angevin Empire) it's entirely possible that nationalism could fade away, at least in Europe. With such a world, it would probably take an external force to unite Germany or Italy, and it's entirely possible that the HRE which survived to 1806 in a world filled with nationalism could continue to exist for centuries longer.

As for divided France - possible, however the likely result of a surviving Angevin Empire is the King of France solidifying control over his vassals to cement his rule and make France a better challenger in power. This, incidentally, would probably destroy the power of Burgundy before it would arise.

I'm not sure I entirely buy a Hapsburg-dominated Europe either. For a start, the Angevin Empire is going to be a far stronger contender than France was, meaning that even at its height the Hapsburg Empire might be matched in strength. Also, I'm not sure that with an Angevin Empire and a Hapsburg Empire that rivalry wouldn't result in the reduction of one or the other, and the Angevins here have the advantage of 300 years to get ready and get stronger before the Hapsburg Empire ever arises. On top of this, the Hapsburg Empire as a far more spread out group of states is going to have a lot of distractions, as it did IRL, where the Angevins will only have France and Spain on its borders to be a threat (plus the British Isles). And add to this than divurging TLs mean that the Hapsburg domains are unlikely to ever unite in this TL.
 
Well the POD is 800 years ago so anything can happen, but I have my doubts. I mean, keeping the Angevin Empire together destroys the cause of English and French nationalism, and creates the very model, some might say a close to perfect model, of how to run a multi-ethnic state (far better than the Austro-Hungarian Empire or the UK with its want-away Scots/Welshmen/Irish. It's possible that other conflicts could revive the cause of nationalism, but in 1200s Europe nation-states were many centuries away from being plausible, and with such an example of multi-ethnicity without one ethnic group dominating the others (England had no control over the other states in the Angevin Empire) it's entirely possible that nationalism could fade away, at least in Europe. With such a world, it would probably take an external force to unite Germany or Italy, and it's entirely possible that the HRE which survived to 1806 in a world filled with nationalism could continue to exist for centuries longer.

As for divided France - possible, however the likely result of a surviving Angevin Empire is the King of France solidifying control over his vassals to cement his rule and make France a better challenger in power. This, incidentally, would probably destroy the power of Burgundy before it would arise.

I'm not sure I entirely buy a Hapsburg-dominated Europe either. For a start, the Angevin Empire is going to be a far stronger contender than France was, meaning that even at its height the Hapsburg Empire might be matched in strength. Also, I'm not sure that with an Angevin Empire and a Hapsburg Empire that rivalry wouldn't result in the reduction of one or the other, and the Angevins here have the advantage of 300 years to get ready and get stronger before the Hapsburg Empire ever arises. On top of this, the Hapsburg Empire as a far more spread out group of states is going to have a lot of distractions, as it did IRL, where the Angevins will only have France and Spain on its borders to be a threat (plus the British Isles). And add to this than divurging TLs mean that the Hapsburg domains are unlikely to ever unite in this TL.

A francophone england would be interesting.
 
A francophone england would be interesting.

England wouldn't become Francophone. The royalty and nobility could remain Francophone but you could never get the common people speaking French - simply put, without mass migrations (totally implausible here) you can't get languages to just leap the Channel. On top of this, England was the dominant state in terms of influence in the Angevin Empire. There's no reason to think that England would have any of its cultural personality overridden by its French connection.
 
I have to disagree. A English kingdom that continues to have substantial Francophone dominions on the Continent would most likely be more heavily exposed to French culture and what not. Plus they would have to put more attention onto any neighboring states who wishes to nibble on their lands. I say England would remain the dominant state for a while but not until the present date.
 
I have to disagree. A English kingdom that continues to have substantial Francophone dominions on the Continent would most likely be more heavily exposed to French culture and what not. Plus they would have to put more attention onto any neighboring states who wishes to nibble on their lands. I say England would remain the dominant state for a while but not until the present date.

But what does being exposed to French culture matter? The average serf is never going to hear anyone talk French, and the average travelling middle class man is going to have too strong connections to England to want to turn Francophone. It's possible for culture to spread like fashion, but languages only spread when an open border allows for constant exposure to the language and allows for daily migrations or visits, allowing the two linguistic communities to merge and one language to dominate. You can't merge a linguistic community with a fifty mile sea separating it, not in an era with such little travel.

As for England not continuing to dominate - possibly, but why not? It's the biggest of the Angevin states by several times, and it has the biggest population by a margin too - historically it's also due to have a far bigger population boom than France, so the gap in population is only going to increase in England's favour. It boasted a far bigger economy and essentially personally funded most Angevin Kings' endeavours in France. It's possible for the French Angevin states to improve their economies but they would essentially have to have such miracle years as to overturn all precedents in order to catch England. Only Normandy and Gascony were big enough to even dream of achieving that, anyway, and let's not get into what a mess Gascony was, where the Dukes could only control three coastal cities and had no authority anywhere else. The only way that England could be caught up would be the French states merging, but that runs totally contrary to Angevin principles, and contradicts the map shown.
 
Or possibly a Franglish creole language, with heavier borrowings of French words to English and more simplified (English) grammer. That might be opimistic though. The language/culture issue is still pretty strong today in places like Belgium and Switzerland, which are geographically much smaller areas
 
But what does being exposed to French culture matter? The average serf is never going to hear anyone talk French, and the average travelling middle class man is going to have too strong connections to England to want to turn Francophone. It's possible for culture to spread like fashion, but languages only spread when an open border allows for constant exposure to the language and allows for daily migrations or visits, allowing the two linguistic communities to merge and one language to dominate. You can't merge a linguistic community with a fifty mile sea separating it, not in an era with such little travel.

As for England not continuing to dominate - possibly, but why not? It's the biggest of the Angevin states by several times, and it has the biggest population by a margin too - historically it's also due to have a far bigger population boom than France, so the gap in population is only going to increase in England's favour. It boasted a far bigger economy and essentially personally funded most Angevin Kings' endeavours in France. It's possible for the French Angevin states to improve their economies but they would essentially have to have such miracle years as to overturn all precedents in order to catch England. Only Normandy and Gascony were big enough to even dream of achieving that, anyway, and let's not get into what a mess Gascony was, where the Dukes could only control three coastal cities and had no authority anywhere else. The only way that England could be caught up would be the French states merging, but that runs totally contrary to Angevin principles, and contradicts the map shown.

I created another map of the TL I was asking for.
France_1154_Eng2.png
 
With a POD this early, perhaps the Black Death can be butterflied from existence. The English holdings in France were quite populous and would've outnumbered the population in England. Plus it killed most of the Francophone gentry so expect a more Romance-like England
 
Top