France Loses Battle of Bouvines

I was wondering what would happen if France lost the Battle of Bouvines in 1214. As far as I can see, the alliance under Otto had more men and it was a lack of discipline under Otto and better French generalship that caused France to win. So what if they lost.

I wonder if King John would do better in holding the family lands in France and would be better regarded by history. If this state of affairs continued I doubt France would ever become a world power. Or would England losing the lands in France be inevitable?

I don't know much about Otto IV, but I bet that this would change politics in the HRE - might even stop him being deposed.

And if John secures the confidence of British nobles with the win, then he might avoid the First Barons War - that would change British politics forever.

Also, any specific PoDs that would make France lose the battle would be interesting.
 
England (well, England's kings - making the distinction because its a Plantagent inheritance, not part of the Kingdom of England) has a reasonable chance of holding those lands unless the King of France is able to take them away (or someone else, but a HRE in a position to threaten that would take more from this POD than is immediately likely).

As I recall from my reading, Philip was almost killed there. So have him be killed. Demoralization ensues.

John may still find a way to alienate the nobility, but he's likely to have a bigger base of supporters if he comes off merely as a prick rather than an incompetent prick.
 
Yeah basically England's nobility is somewhat weaker and France's nobility somewhat stronger.

Maybe this also means the Cathars resist longer since IIRC Phillip's successor only really got involved later to impose his authority on southern France. If his successor is still trying to secure authority in the north the south will be left to itself for a while longer.

The Champagne War of Succession would also be different.
 
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