France Keeps Alsace-Lorraine but Loses its Colonies in 1871

There was never any real possibility that a victorious Prussia/Germany would not take *some* of Alsace-Lorraine. The question was how much.

"The annexation of Strasbourg and of Alsace appeared to him [Bismarck] necessary in order to enhance the security of southern Germany and make any French pressure on the South German states impossible." Hajo Holborn, *A History of Modern Germany: 1840-1945,* p. 222. https://books.google.com/books?id=Y4pLQ1jC1JIC&pg=PA222

What is true is that Bismarck did not originally favor taking Metz, but yielded to the military judgment of Moltke on that issue. (Indeed, there was a real dilemma here. Even a limited annexation--of the German-speaking areas of Alsace--would be enough to embitter France and make it dream of a war of revenge in the future. So to put Germany in the best possible position for such a war, it was thought necessary to take even more territory and thus embitter the French even more...)
 

CaliGuy

Banned
There was never any real possibility that a victorious Prussia/Germany would not take *some* of Alsace-Lorraine. The question was how much.

"The annexation of Strasbourg and of Alsace appeared to him [Bismarck] necessary in order to enhance the security of southern Germany and make any French pressure on the South German states impossible." Hajo Holborn, *A History of Modern Germany: 1840-1945,* p. 222. https://books.google.com/books?id=Y4pLQ1jC1JIC&pg=PA222

What is true is that Bismarck did not originally favor taking Metz, but yielded to the military judgment of Moltke on that issue. (Indeed, there was a real dilemma here. Even a limited annexation--of the German-speaking areas of Alsace--would be enough to embitter France and make it dream of a war of revenge in the future. So to put Germany in the best possible position for such a war, it was thought necessary to take even more territory and thus embitter the French even more...)
Was taking Briey-Longwy realistic, though?
 
Was taking Briey-Longwy realistic, though?
Maybe if you got rid of the indemnity but probably not.

If you want to make the peace harsher you may be able to increase the war indemnity somewhat as it was paid off within 3 years while France had 5 years to pay it off under treaty.
 
I have not seen anyone mention the true negative of taking Frances colonial empire. Bismark himself would later claim his map of Africa was in Europe. The limited colonial gains where used to fan the flames between France and Britian. Cutting the colonial empire from France would drive it further into British hands.
Truth is neither France or Britian should have had any account on German actions. Solving the Balkans question was paramount, and making sure Russia was appreciative of German efforts at this was the name of the game. Austria and France would have been an easy war for Germany, Russia and France was two world wars.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Maybe if you got rid of the indemnity but probably not.

If you want to make the peace harsher you may be able to increase the war indemnity somewhat as it was paid off within 3 years while France had 5 years to pay it off under treaty.
Taking Briey-Longwy appears to be worth giving up the indemnity for, though.
 
The area around Metz was French-majority and yet was nevertheless taken by Prussia/Germany in 1871, though.
That was not for ethnic reasons but because Metz was a strategic stronghold. Leaving it to the French would make the newly acquired German possessions too fragile in round 2
 
There was never any real possibility that a victorious Prussia/Germany would not take *some* of Alsace-Lorraine. The question was how much.

"The annexation of Strasbourg and of Alsace appeared to him [Bismarck] necessary in order to enhance the security of southern Germany and make any French pressure on the South German states impossible." Hajo Holborn, *A History of Modern Germany: 1840-1945,* p. 222. https://books.google.com/books?id=Y4pLQ1jC1JIC&pg=PA222

What is true is that Bismarck did not originally favor taking Metz, but yielded to the military judgment of Moltke on that issue. (Indeed, there was a real dilemma here. Even a limited annexation--of the German-speaking areas of Alsace--would be enough to embitter France and make it dream of a war of revenge in the future. So to put Germany in the best possible position for such a war, it was thought necessary to take even more territory and thus embitter the French even more...)

Not taking Alsace-Lorraine would mean a large military presence from other German States (mostly Prussia) in those member states of the Empire bordering France. Alsace-Lorraine for German domestic politics was a neutral way to solve the very real threat France would have posed either way. Let's not forget that the German Empire had just been founded and it was federal monarchy, the member states accepted Prussia as Primus inter Pares, but they did not agree to become Prussian, they agreed to form a federation.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
That was not for ethnic reasons but because Metz was a strategic stronghold. Leaving it to the French would make the newly acquired German possessions too fragile in round 2
Yes, and taking Briey-Longwy wouldn't have been for ethnic reasons either; rather, it would have been to cripple France's finances.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Not taking Alsace-Lorraine would mean a large military presence from other German States (mostly Prussia) in those member states of the Empire bordering France. Alsace-Lorraine for German domestic politics was a neutral way to solve the very real threat France would have posed either way. Let's not forget that the German Empire had just been founded and it was federal monarchy, the member states accepted Prussia as Primus inter Pares, but they did not agree to become Prussian, they agreed to form a federation.
Couldn't this problem have been eliminated by the creation of a permanent demilitarized zone in Alsace-Lorraine as well as perhaps with some land swaps, though?
 

CaliGuy

Banned
I mean, if the victorious Entente/Allies could demilitarize the Ruhr after the end of World War I, why couldn't Germany keep Alsace-Lorraine French but have it be permanently demilitarized after 1871?
 
Did France actually have a choice in this matter, though?
Well the parliament agreed to the treaty. Sure I'm not sure how much choice France really had but they had to actually agree to the terms.

I suppose Germany could have taken what they wanted and if needed kept the war going till France actually agreed but Germany's real war aim had already been met (the proclamation of the German empire. The rest was seen in Germany as filler on the sides. They needed to get the army back to Germany and focus domestically on politics of integration.
 
The problem is Germany really didn't want colonies. Bismark warned against them, and only really backed Kamerun because it was actually not all that contested. The Germans can't take anything in the Americas either.
 
Germany was a net iron ore importer. Acquisition of Alsace reduces German dependency on iron ore imports. In OTL Germany also wanted to recover the Sundgau including Belfort. The demand for Belfort was dropped by Bismark to conclude a swift signing of the treaty.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
irrc the iron ore desposits in Briey-Longwy were only discovered after 1871
I thought that they were discovered before 1871 but only became useful (due to technological improvements) after 1871; am I wrong in regards to this?
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Well the parliament agreed to the treaty. Sure I'm not sure how much choice France really had but they had to actually agree to the terms.

I suppose Germany could have taken what they wanted and if needed kept the war going till France actually agreed but Germany's real war aim had already been met (the proclamation of the German empire. The rest was seen in Germany as filler on the sides. They needed to get the army back to Germany and focus domestically on politics of integration.
Acquiring Briey-Longwy would have been an extremely nice additional goal for Germany in addition to the unification of the German Empire, though.
 
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