France Keeps Alsace-Lorraine but Loses its Colonies in 1871

CaliGuy

Banned
What if Prussia's leadership (specifically Bismarck, King/Kaiser Wilhelm I, and Moltke the Elder) would have decided that making a permanent enemy out of France isn't a good idea and would have thus allowed France to keep Alsace-Lorraine in 1871 on the condition that it be permanently demilitarized (so that Germany can have extra security). In compensation for allowing France to keep Alsace-Lorraine (albeit in a permanent demilitarized state), Prussia's leadership insists that France transfer either most or all of its colonies as well as Algeria (which was officially a part of France) to Prussia. Afterwards, France reluctantly agrees to all of the Prussian peace terms due to its extremely strong desire to keep Alsace-Lorraine.

Anyway, what exactly happens afterwards?
 

longsword14

Banned
What if Prussia's leadership (specifically Bismarck, King/Kaiser Wilhelm I, and Moltke the Elder) would have decided that making a permanent enemy out of France isn't a good idea and would have thus allowed France to keep Alsace-Lorraine in 1871 on the condition that it be permanently demilitarized (so that Germany can have extra security). In compensation for allowing France to keep Alsace-Lorraine (albeit in a permanent demilitarized state), Prussia's leadership insists that France transfer either most or all of its colonies as well as Algeria (which was officially a part of France) to Prussia. Afterwards, France reluctantly agrees to all of the Prussian peace terms due to its extremely strong desire to keep Alsace-Lorraine.

Anyway, what exactly happens afterwards?
So Alsace-Lorraine ,which was not on the original plan for issues related to long term hostilities, is given up but colonies of which Germany has no use are taken?
This goes against sense for them, there is nothing but extra entanglements.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
So Alsace-Lorraine ,which was not on the original plan for issues related to long term hostilities, is given up but colonies of which Germany has no use are taken?
This goes against sense for them, there is nothing but extra entanglements.
At least there will be less Franco-German tensions in this TL, though.
 
There were not that many colonies at the time, Senegal, Cochinchina and a couple specks.

And Bismarck was adamant against colonies saying "Germany is not rich enough to have colonies"
 

CaliGuy

Banned
There were not that many colonies at the time, Senegal, Cochinchina and a couple specks.

You forgot Algeria (which technically isn't a colony but where the natives were essentially treated as colonized people).

And Bismarck was adamant against colonies saying "Germany is not rich enough to have colonies"

Bismarck can change his mind, though; plus, even Bismarck agreed to the German acquisition of colonies in 1884-1885 in real life.
 
It's possible,
but Alsace is more useful and closer to home and has mixed Germanic history, plus Strasbourg.
Thing that always got me was that if they had an honest plebiscite Alsace and lothringin would probably have chosen Germany.

Prussia/Germany would be hard pressed to maintain French colonies at this point.
 
The Reichstag election results in Alsace-Lorraine make this statement questionable, though.

But wasn't most pro-French sentiment because Germany tried to Germanize A-L and trampled on local customs? If Germany is willing to put A-L to a plebiscite, wouldn't that imply a Germany more willing to listen to the locals?
 

CaliGuy

Banned
But wasn't most pro-French sentiment because Germany tried to Germanize A-L and trampled on local customs?

Did Germany try doing that as early as the early 1870s, though?

If Germany is willing to put A-L to a plebiscite, wouldn't that imply a Germany more willing to listen to the locals?

To some extent; however, a majority of the locals in Alsace-Lorraine might nevertheless prefer France to Germany in such a scenario.
 
Did Germany try doing that as early as the early 1870s, though?

I honestly have no idea. I'd imagine that they did on a small scale, increasing as Germany consolidated.

To some extent; however, a majority of the locals in Alsace-Lorraine might nevertheless prefer France to Germany in such a scenario.

That's the risk Germany would have to take. Though if we allow for some intimidation convincing...
 

CaliGuy

Banned
I honestly have no idea. I'd imagine that they did on a small scale, increasing as Germany consolidated.

OK.

That's the risk Germany would have to take. Though if we allow for some intimidation convincing...

I would like to point out that Germany will almost certainly lose this plebiscite in the French-majority areas around Metz regardless of what it does, though.
 
Even if tensions are somewhat eased, this doesn't exactly erases completely the reasons for the franco-russian alliance. The austro-russian disputes in the Balkans still happens, the french room for diplomacy is strained due the formation of a very powerful central european state and the economic rivalry between UK and Germany still is going to happen.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Even if tensions are somewhat eased, this doesn't exactly erases completely the reasons for the franco-russian alliance. The austro-russian disputes in the Balkans still happens, the french room for diplomacy is strained due the formation of a very powerful central european state and the economic rivalry between UK and Germany still is going to happen.
What about a Franco-German alliance in this TL, though?
 
What about a Franco-German alliance in this TL, though?

The problem of the german diplomacy is that it had little to offer to the global empires of France and Britain. I'd say that the most natural german ally is Russia because it locks the eastern front and allows Germany to project it's full power in the west, if necessary. A franco-german alliance doesn't give France anything to leverage against Britain - Germany can't project significant power outside of Europe and France doesn't have (blatant) european ambitions, so the natural course of action for France is to seek a franco-british agreement about their spheres of influence.

Of all powers, Russia is the one who can benefit the most from german power in central europe, in order to pursue her interests in Middle East and Asia - her western border is secured against a Crimea redux, the german fleet helps to protect the russian baltic and while Germany doesn't have the capital the french had to invest in Russia, Germany was still a growing import-export economy that could benefit the russian economy with interesting trade deals.

The only problem with keeping Russia as an ally is the dispute with Austria-Hungary.
 
If so, I would like to see a source for that; after all, as far as I know, France strongly missed both Alsace and Lorraine.

It also an example of clashing types of nationalism, State (France) versus ethnic (German). Alsace-Lorraine was a missed chance for Germany. They actually liked and ended missing the social reforms etc. in the German Empire, they did strongly dislike the fact that they weren't an own territory in the German Empire, but remained under Prussian administration for too long. IMHO Alsace-Lorraine could have been won over, convincing France was a whole other story (highly unlikely even if Alsace-Loraine would become clearly Pro-German).
 

Thomas1195

Banned
Well, German early industrialization heavily relied on Alsace Lorraine iron ores. No Alsace Lorraine would mean slower industrial expansion. Meanwhile, after the discovery of G...-Thomas process, the French would reap lots of gains from A-L ores, thus becoming industrially stronger than OTL.
 
Weren't the French ready to lose Alsace but Lorraine was the reach too far?

A clarification: three of the four départements of Lorraine remained French. It was the département of the Moselle that was ceded to Germany. Anyway, I don't think people were happy to lose any of the départements. It didn't matter whether they had been in Alsace or Lorraine.

Thing that always got me was that if they had an honest plebiscite Alsace and lothringin would probably have chosen Germany.

What do you base this on? Language? Not all German speakers necessarily wanted to be part of the German Empire; think of Austria, Switzerland and Luxembourg.

From what I've read, in 1871 the consensus was probably to remain part of France, although we don't have firm data. On the other hand, it's possible that a 1918 referendum might have favored Germany. There are always going to be people who favor the status qup. (There also were many who would have chosen independence if an option.)
 
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