France keeps 1795 borders: the left Bank of the Rhine

Was America that much of an asset for Britain? After the war, you were still our largest trading partner; we didn't pay much in taxes beforehand; and we promptly turned around and plotted to steal French and Spanish colonies.

Fair points; what I was saying was more that it was perceived (in Britain, at any rate), as being a loss for us and a win for the French, so I doubt it would have come up in French discourse alongside Poland.
 
So the question to my mind is whether German nationalism would take off in the Rhineland and it would want to leave in the long run or whether it would just be a case of having a large minority with its own political agendas and so on.
Does it really mater if it does or not? As long as there is a strong military and security apparatus hostile towards German Nationalists, it's not like they would be able to break off. Though they would be able to provide a neighboring German State of some sort of a casus belli to start a war with France to liberate their brethren.
 
Does it really mater if it does or not? As long as there is a strong military and security apparatus hostile towards German Nationalists, it's not like they would be able to break off. Though they would be able to provide a neighboring German State of some sort of a casus belli to start a war with France to liberate their brethren.

Presuming you get national feeling developing, which seems likely then wouldn't the Rhineland start becoming a burden rather than a asset for France, rather like it's Italian lands for the Hapsburgs? In terms of alienating the Germans to the east, who would be given a stronger incentive to form some sort of union to protect Germany against further encroachment and to 'liberate' the lost lands. Also in terms of growing unrest in the Rhineland territories themselves. There are plenty of examples of powers deciding to concede territories than have become too costly to maintain.

It might well change the structure of the German state that develops compared to OTL as well as have impact on how France develops.

Steve
 
Presuming you get national feeling developing, which seems likely then wouldn't the Rhineland start becoming a burden rather than a asset for France, rather like it's Italian lands for the Hapsburgs? In terms of alienating the Germans to the east, who would be given a stronger incentive to form some sort of union to protect Germany against further encroachment and to 'liberate' the lost lands. Also in terms of growing unrest in the Rhineland territories themselves. There are plenty of examples of powers deciding to concede territories than have become too costly to maintain.

It might well change the structure of the German state that develops compared to OTL as well as have impact on how France develops.

Steve

Austria could build a new port in Trieste to replace the facilities in Venice, you can't exactly relocate the vast coal fields in the Rhineland. The Rhine is also a natural defense barrier, to the Germans who will begin to be seen as a threat most likely due to demands for said Rhineland. So my guess would be that France would keep the Rhineland unless it was forced out.

Additionally, quitting the Rhineland would also start to open up a whole new can of worms for the French, with Alsace, Luxembourg, Flanders etc.

One interesting side effect could be "Die Wacht am Rhein" being a French song...
 
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Equuleus

True they won't want to. However they might not be given a choice. The stronger France might be able to hold on, especially if Germany stays divided but it could be a costly taste.

One other point is that from ~1815 onwards France absorbed a lot of minority language communities. This was partly made possible because centralised education and the introduction of standardise language helped absorb them. This might work with the large German community that exists in TTL France or alternatively the attempts to do so may generate a stronger sense of nationalism and identity that makes absorption more difficult.

Steve

Austria could build a new port in Trieste to replace the facilities in Venice, you can't exactly relocate the vast coal fields in the Rhineland. The Rhine is also a natural defense barrier, to the Germans who will begin to be seen as a threat most likely due to demands for said Rhineland. So my guess would be that France would keep the Rhineland unless it was forced out.

Additionally, quitting the Rhineland would also start to open up a whole new can of worms for the French, with Alsace, Luxembourg, Flanders etc.

One interesting side effect could be "Die Wacht am Rhein" being a French song...
 
Equuleus

True they won't want to. However they might not be given a choice. The stronger France might be able to hold on, especially if Germany stays divided but it could be a costly taste.

One other point is that from ~1815 onwards France absorbed a lot of minority language communities. This was partly made possible because centralised education and the introduction of standardise language helped absorb them. This might work with the large German community that exists in TTL France or alternatively the attempts to do so may generate a stronger sense of nationalism and identity that makes absorption more difficult.

Steve

The problem is that in a french rhineland, german nationalism won't rise (there wasn't any german nationalist movement in Alsace for example, while the region spoke a germanic language until after WWII) as the rhineland wasn't an unified territory even linguisticaly despite the german antionalist myth.

http://books.google.fr/books?id=cjdYPO6A_KoC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

This book in chapter V explains it clearly, as the Rhineland was a great melting pot of language, with some high german, some local german dialect, some dutch, some flemish, some dutch dialects, some French and some french dialects. So a big mix of languages, aded to the fact that the youngest generation was very enthusiast compared to the older part of the pop, as french meritocracy was far more attracting than the german traditionnal aristocracy (a lot of elderly officials (especially on prussian lands) were replaced by talented young locals)
 
Wasn't it a situation that the 1814 settlement gave France the West bank of the Rhine, and then that was taken away after the Hundred Days campaign?

So a plausible situation could be 'Napoleon drowns during the escape from Elba -> No Hundred Days -> France keeps the (non-Dutch) Rhineland.
 

Anderman

Donor
Equuleus

True they won't want to. However they might not be given a choice. The stronger France might be able to hold on, especially if Germany stays divided but it could be a costly taste.

One other point is that from ~1815 onwards France absorbed a lot of minority language communities. This was partly made possible because centralised education and the introduction of standardise language helped absorb them. This might work with the large German community that exists in TTL France or alternatively the attempts to do so may generate a stronger sense of nationalism and identity that makes absorption more difficult.

Steve

How many of this languages were spoken outside of france?
After all the people in posen didn´t stop speaking polish afaik there was a centralised prussian education system.
 
How many of this languages were spoken outside of france?
After all the people in posen didn´t stop speaking polish afaik there was a centralised prussian education system.

Anderman

That was basically my point. Not only would the German speaking population, albeit as Imladrik says in several dialects, be substantial in numbers but it can identity with several states, pretty powerful in some cases, just across the border with which they often had historical links. hence seeking to absorb the German speaking groups would be more difficult than with the purely internal other minority groups and could prompt a stronger reaction.

Steve
 
Wasn't it a situation that the 1814 settlement gave France the West bank of the Rhine, and then that was taken away after the Hundred Days campaign?

So a plausible situation could be 'Napoleon drowns during the escape from Elba -> No Hundred Days -> France keeps the (non-Dutch) Rhineland.

Alex

No I think there were only some small changes in the French borders as a result of the 100 days. Pretty certain the transfer of the Rhineland to Prussia had already been agreed.

Steve
 
Alex

No I think there were only some small changes in the French borders as a result of the 100 days. Pretty certain the transfer of the Rhineland to Prussia had already been agreed.

Steve

I'm sure I've seen an 1814 map of France including Belgium and the non-Dutch left bank.
 

Anderman

Donor
Anderman

That was basically my point. Not only would the German speaking population, albeit as Imladrik says in several dialects, be substantial in numbers but it can identity with several states, pretty powerful in some cases, just across the border with which they often had historical links. hence seeking to absorb the German speaking groups would be more difficult than with the purely internal other minority groups and could prompt a stronger reaction.

Steve

Ups sorry then i don´t got reading your first post :eek:
 
Anderman

That was basically my point. Not only would the German speaking population, albeit as Imladrik says in several dialects, be substantial in numbers but it can identity with several states, pretty powerful in some cases, just across the border with which they often had historical links. hence seeking to absorb the German speaking groups would be more difficult than with the purely internal other minority groups and could prompt a stronger reaction.

Steve
What was so different about Alsace from the Rhineland that prevented it from becoming a sore? ( other than being less than half the population )
And I do not think it would be fair to say "it was ruled by France longer", since pre revolution it was more oriented to Germany than France.

Also, Prussia did make progress in penetrating Posen with the German language. They however also had openly hostile policies to the Polish, such as trying to buy up land to put in protestant Germans in to colonize the place, and messing with the Polish catholic church. So I think in general it would not be fair to expect the same results Prussia had in Posen with a France which still holds the Rhineland.
 
Equuleus

True they won't want to. However they might not be given a choice. The stronger France might be able to hold on, especially if Germany stays divided but it could be a costly taste.

One other point is that from ~1815 onwards France absorbed a lot of minority language communities. This was partly made possible because centralised education and the introduction of standardise language helped absorb them. This might work with the large German community that exists in TTL France or alternatively the attempts to do so may generate a stronger sense of nationalism and identity that makes absorption more difficult.

Steve

And i forgot to mention the fact that there was no centralised education before 1882 and the Ferry Laws. Before that people already know how to speak French even if it was not their maternal language. For example in alsace, between 1789 and 1799, the number of alsatian who could spoke french increased from 25% to 75%, without any state intervention except that the law were in French (i don't know if the same thing happened in the rhineland). And as i said, until the end of WWII, most regional languages were still spoken in france, it was only the mass media who destroyed the regional languages, but language wasn't the cement of the French Nation.
 
And i forgot to mention the fact that there was no centralised education before 1882 and the Ferry Laws. Before that people already know how to speak French even if it was not their maternal language. For example in alsace, between 1789 and 1799, the number of alsatian who could spoke french increased from 25% to 75%, without any state intervention except that the law were in French (i don't know if the same thing happened in the rhineland). And as i said, until the end of WWII, most regional languages were still spoken in france, it was only the mass media who destroyed the regional languages, but language wasn't the cement of the French Nation.
With a POD this soon they will be pretty mutch became french espisialy with the industrialisation with rural exodus and industrialisation. And at that time there wasn't an idea of a German nation yet.
 
With a POD this soon they will be pretty mutch became french espisialy with the industrialisation with rural exodus and industrialisation. And at that time there wasn't an idea of a German nation yet.

Xgentis

Nationalism has a long history in Europe, although often swamped by other factors, most noticably religion. However it received a real boost with the aftermath of the French revolution. Much of this was at least motivated by Napoleon's own actions in Germany so that may be muted if those are butterflied but by 1815 there was a strong developing German identity. It, like that in Italy, was not certain to come to anything, but it was present. Putting a lot of Germans under French rule is likely to only boost this.

Steve
 
I'm sure I've seen an 1814 map of France including Belgium and the non-Dutch left bank.
I believe this was before Napoleon's first abdication (he was offered terms somewhere between the Six Days Campaign and Leipzig, I believe), wherein Napoleon would limit France to its natural borders (But Napoleon would remain on the throne). Napoleon declined, I believe.

EDIT: Whoops, didn't read the dates.
 
I'd say a worse French performance in late 1805 (especially in Auterlitz) would be a useful POD for that. If austria is a tougher nut to crack, but Napoleon manages to get the upper hand on the field without taking Vienna and have the treaty of Presburg, he would probably offer a lenient peace to Austria and maybe wreck the Third Coalition in the process. You could have some bargaining between France, Russia and Austria on those terms :

- France comes back to the borders defined at Lunéville, keeps indirect control on the Netherlands and Northwestern Italy ;

- The HRE would likely be disbanded in its old form, but Austria would be awarded proeminence in Germany, probably in a tight alliance with Bavaria ans Saxony, Baden and small german states in Northern Germany being more of a French-Austrian condominium. Austria keeps its Italian gains

-Russia would have some compensations, probably at the expense of the Ottoman Empire (Napoleon would look elsewhere).

France and Austria make an uneasy, but workable alliance, each partner having one or two threats on his back (Britain for France, Russia and Prussia for Austria).

Two losers ; The UK and Prussia. Those two are likely to make a counter-alliance, probably with Russian benevolent neutrality.
 
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