unprincipled peter
Donor
Pre-amble: One of my peeves on this site is that often threads get derailed by posters who want to argue the implausibility of a scenario. I don't mind (edit insert - such argument) if the scenario is approaching ASB. If you find my setup in that category, say so and exit stage left. If you find it unlikely, but possible, stick to the topic at hand and please don't derail the conversation.
The setup: France joins the War of Jenkins Ear. HRE Charles VI of Austria decides he does not want a meal of mushrooms, and lives on. Ignore the conspiracy theorists who think he was poisoned. When the British fleet is away on their ill fated trip to the Battle of Cartagena (Dec '40 -May '41 - actual fighting toward the end), France joins up with Spain.
Topic one of discussion: What realistically happens? While France and Spain navies combined are (I think) bigger than the British (especially with the losses of Cartagena), they're not exactly a mean, lean fighting machine. Remember, too, that while British navy is good, it has not yet reached the level of great. France and Spain are not sidetracked by continental adventures so they can concentrate on Britain and British colonial holdings.
I'm thinking Charles VI stays out, preferring to continue his policy of all actions are aimed at one goal - the Pragmatic Sanction.
Does Frederick not yet the Great sieze the opportunity to attack Austria while everyone else is occupied? His main reason is because he wants to, as OTL. Causus Belli can be manufactured at will.
Topic two (and one I really hope is addressed): For argument's sake, assume France and Spain achieve success. As the great timeline hypothesizes, God is a Frenchman (and since Spain's ruler started out as a Frenchman, Spain is covered under that umbrella). French/Spanish navies score enough success that troop and supply movement is not a prohibitive issue. France can move enough troops to New France to protect their portion of Acadia, and expand - Not so sure about taking Nova Scotia, but they can certainly take their claimed portion of Maine and occupy the Hudson Bay Company. Under this scenario, an invasion of Britain is plausible, IMO. So, if they have Britain on the ropes, how much can they realistically wring out of Britain? They aren't dismantling the British Empire. IMO, that falls in the approaching ASB category. For argument's sake, King George, or his heir, make peace at almost any price to prevent further catastrophe (such as a Stuart restoration).
Primarily, would the French have the foresight, or impetus, to demand a defined North American border? At minimum they're going to get (and define) Rupert's Land and Acadia/Northern Maine, as well as the St Lawrence River Basin. Is kicking the Brits out of Nova Scotia feasible? Are the French smart enough to define the Mississippi River Basin, including the Ohio River Basin? Define French land everything west of the Appalachians? The New France Wanker in me says all these things are plausible and doable. The realist in me says North America won't get much thought at the peace table while the main discussion is centered on the more profitable sugar islands and India. But, since we've had that discussion before, let's postulate that one of the negotiators says 'hey, while we're at it, let's define New France'. What is realistically definable? a caveat is that while the basics of the continental geography are known, it really isn't all that well mapped out.
Spain will, at a minimum, get Florida defined as most of southern Georgia. They'll want Gibraltar and Minorca back. They'll get at least one. How much they get, IMO, is how much they contribute to success in the war. If their main contribution is, as in OTL, not being beaten, France isn't going to negotiate too hard on their behalf. If they contribute to offensive success, they'll get more of the spoils.
Remember - to the point of POD, Britain have scored victories in destroying ports/strongholds, but don't occupy much of anything. Once France enters, British fortunes go downhill.
The setup: France joins the War of Jenkins Ear. HRE Charles VI of Austria decides he does not want a meal of mushrooms, and lives on. Ignore the conspiracy theorists who think he was poisoned. When the British fleet is away on their ill fated trip to the Battle of Cartagena (Dec '40 -May '41 - actual fighting toward the end), France joins up with Spain.
Topic one of discussion: What realistically happens? While France and Spain navies combined are (I think) bigger than the British (especially with the losses of Cartagena), they're not exactly a mean, lean fighting machine. Remember, too, that while British navy is good, it has not yet reached the level of great. France and Spain are not sidetracked by continental adventures so they can concentrate on Britain and British colonial holdings.
I'm thinking Charles VI stays out, preferring to continue his policy of all actions are aimed at one goal - the Pragmatic Sanction.
Does Frederick not yet the Great sieze the opportunity to attack Austria while everyone else is occupied? His main reason is because he wants to, as OTL. Causus Belli can be manufactured at will.
Topic two (and one I really hope is addressed): For argument's sake, assume France and Spain achieve success. As the great timeline hypothesizes, God is a Frenchman (and since Spain's ruler started out as a Frenchman, Spain is covered under that umbrella). French/Spanish navies score enough success that troop and supply movement is not a prohibitive issue. France can move enough troops to New France to protect their portion of Acadia, and expand - Not so sure about taking Nova Scotia, but they can certainly take their claimed portion of Maine and occupy the Hudson Bay Company. Under this scenario, an invasion of Britain is plausible, IMO. So, if they have Britain on the ropes, how much can they realistically wring out of Britain? They aren't dismantling the British Empire. IMO, that falls in the approaching ASB category. For argument's sake, King George, or his heir, make peace at almost any price to prevent further catastrophe (such as a Stuart restoration).
Primarily, would the French have the foresight, or impetus, to demand a defined North American border? At minimum they're going to get (and define) Rupert's Land and Acadia/Northern Maine, as well as the St Lawrence River Basin. Is kicking the Brits out of Nova Scotia feasible? Are the French smart enough to define the Mississippi River Basin, including the Ohio River Basin? Define French land everything west of the Appalachians? The New France Wanker in me says all these things are plausible and doable. The realist in me says North America won't get much thought at the peace table while the main discussion is centered on the more profitable sugar islands and India. But, since we've had that discussion before, let's postulate that one of the negotiators says 'hey, while we're at it, let's define New France'. What is realistically definable? a caveat is that while the basics of the continental geography are known, it really isn't all that well mapped out.
Spain will, at a minimum, get Florida defined as most of southern Georgia. They'll want Gibraltar and Minorca back. They'll get at least one. How much they get, IMO, is how much they contribute to success in the war. If their main contribution is, as in OTL, not being beaten, France isn't going to negotiate too hard on their behalf. If they contribute to offensive success, they'll get more of the spoils.
Remember - to the point of POD, Britain have scored victories in destroying ports/strongholds, but don't occupy much of anything. Once France enters, British fortunes go downhill.