France is fractured, not Germany?

I once led another discussion about the French. One of the posters said that "France was also stuck in a seemingly endless period of splintered states and factions" or something close to that. So... what if the French, not the Germans, get stuck with forming an HRE, that soon becomes mear shambles? What POD would be needed for this? What would happen in Europe? What would Germany be like? Italy? What states would later arise from France?
EDIT: Note, I have a French BAM ready to make a map of the split states, so once we get to that stage... ;)
 
Last edited:
Also, some other questions: What would Britain do with these severely weak states to the south? The Spanish? The Belgians and the Dutch? The Germans? The Italians? Who would be the Prussia? Or would there even be a Prussia?
 
Doing a little quick reading, Hugh Capet was elected King of France. So maybe the difference was that the French monarchy became heriditary, while the HRE was elected. Given the precedence of Hugh being elected, make the Kingship of France elective. Maybe Hugh doesn't have sons. Or he is thwarted in making his son king.

The southern nobles were very independant for a long time. Keep them stronger and there'll be no France as we know it. Possible PoDs would be; no Muslim invasion, no Albigensian Crusade.

The Netherlands might still include Flanders. Burgundy could be the Prussia.

As for what the English, Spanish, etc. would do with the French states, marry if they can, bully, look for reasons to invade, trade with, hire mercenaries from. In other words, what medieval rulers did.
France.Xe.siecle.png
 
Hmm... The 100 Years War is a bit late, as I want the positions of Germany and France switched politically... Prhaps one could do something of a French analogue to German events creating a French HRE, and a German analogue to French events creating a solid German Kingdom?
 
I once led another discussion about the French. One of the posters said that "France was also stuck in a seemingly endless period of splintered states and factions" or something close to that. So... what if the French, not the Germans, get stuck with forming an HRE, that soon becomes mear shambles? What POD would be needed for this? What would happen in Europe? What would Germany be like? Italy?

Well, Italy would develop similar to OTL, I'd say. ITTL, French Emperors would fight in Italy, oftentimes disturbed by German kings. However, the French Emperors should have an even weaker stand in Italy than the German emperors: The Hohenstauffen were dukes of Swabia, which controls passes to Italy, the Habsburgs controled Tyrol and other regions next to Italy. We'd probably see Swabia and Bavaria becoming strong players in French Italy.

Considering Germany, not to have the burden of the empire could indeed result in a strong, centralized German kongdom. Given Germanies geographic situation and the development of the Franch-German border we'd probably see a dominant Germany in central Europe by know. France had England, the HRE/Hapsburgs and Spain as significant enemies. Germany would have no significant enemy in the east for almost a thousand years. And the significant enemy in the west - France - is weakened by definition. Sounds like the perfect start for an Uber-Germany-timeline.
 
Well, Italy would develop similar to OTL, I'd say. ITTL, French Emperors would fight in Italy, oftentimes disturbed by German kings. However, the French Emperors should have an even weaker stand in Italy than the German emperors: The Hohenstauffen were dukes of Swabia, which controls passes to Italy, the Habsburgs controled Tyrol and other regions next to Italy. We'd probably see Swabia and Bavaria becoming strong players in French Italy.

Considering Germany, not to have the burden of the empire could indeed result in a strong, centralized German kongdom. Given Germanies geographic situation and the development of the Franch-German border we'd probably see a dominant Germany in central Europe by know. France had England, the HRE/Hapsburgs and Spain as significant enemies. Germany would have no significant enemy in the east for almost a thousand years. And the significant enemy in the west - France - is weakened by definition. Sounds like the perfect start for an Uber-Germany-timeline.
Yes... Germany would probably be at least a world power. It would settle the East, hold in the West... Interestingly, by colonisation, it may have a large population to ship people en masse there as well. But what POD would require the switch of German/French positions?
 
Well couldn't you have Germany over-run in the immediate post West Francian years at a time when the position of emperor was beginning its wanders West and East to and fro before settling down in the German part ? I don't know who the culprits would be - is it too early for the Huns ? Maybe the Poles ?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
The 100YW helped centralise France but it was still pretty weak until quite a bit later...It wasn't really until post wars of religion that France entirely became a nation state.
 
Top