France goes V/STOL for carriers 1960s

Would it have been feasible for France to have gone V/STOL and converted Clemenceau and Foch accordingly in the late 1960s?

They've got the basis of a V/STOL multirole fighter in the Dassault Balzac V (based on the Dassault Mirage IIIV). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvv6PZtDaLg

For COD and AEW, they've got rotaries of course, but could also consider the Dornier Do 31. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3YueCf1JeI

I'm not suggesting V/STOL was a good option over CATOBAR, but had they made the decision, how would it have turned out? For example, would the Balzac be able to carry a sufficient weapons load? What about the Etendard's anti-ship role?
 

Archibald

Banned
Michel Wibault was instrumental in early history of the P.1127, while the Balzac and Mirage III-V were utterly impractical and crazy.

The Harrier was tested on Foch and Clemenceau and even on the Jeanne d'Arc helicopter carrier, ad there was also the Arromanches.
 
the French had four VTOL projects

c450_15.jpg

Le Snecma C-450 Coléoptère
a tail siter with ring wing and jet engine
the only prototype crash during landing attempt

image011.jpg

the Dassault Balzac and Mirage III-V
defacto a Mirage III jet filed up with Lifting jets by Roll & Royce
same fate crash by pilots...

md610-box1.jpg

Dassault MD-610 Cavalier
the french version of Harrier jet with the Spey engine or Pegasus BE-53 engine in it.
sadly never build...
 
md610-box1.jpg

Dassault MD-610 Cavalier
the french version of Harrier jet with the Spey engine or Pegasus BE-53 engine in it.
sadly never build...
Was that at about the same time as Breguet 120, Mirage G and Jaguar M? Those projects and the Mirage G.8 went nowhere, so with hindsight the money spent on them could have been spent on VTOL projects, with the production aircraft being built instead of Super Etendard.
 
Was that at about the same time as Breguet 120, Mirage G and Jaguar M? Those projects and the Mirage G.8 went nowhere, so with hindsight the money spent on them could have been spent on VTOL projects, with the production aircraft being built instead of Super Etendard.

Yes, was same time frame, like the Concorde trouble and AFVG fiasco...
 
My first question is mission. Does France want something to police the Empire and project power versus such lesser opponents or does it require something to control the ocean in a battle against another major power fleet? Does this dovetail into a NATO fleet or be purely independent?

I can argue that a V/STOL Carrier might be a good compromise for France as it was for the UK. It gives you air power, albeit not as fully capable, near anywhere you can steam the task group into range. Falklands is a great example of how just a little air power was worth it. If France only really needs something to keep Bears off its ASW work in the Atlantic or drop some iron on the natives in a limited banana dust up then why not follow the UK lead? It fits a NATO mission with utility in projecting independent French power, a win-win to France.

Would the added emphasis on V/STOL aircraft pushed the UK and France closer, or drawn Dornier into a greater role in the field? Could that have given the European aerospace industry the lead in the field such that the now F35 was a European led counter part to our F22 project? Would the defense side look more like Boeing versus Airbus? Plus export potential for this niche war ship class.

Many worms fall out of this can.
 

Archibald

Banned
No it wasn't ! The MD-620 Cavalier was around 1959-1960, a study before the Balzac and Mirage III-V.
Michel Wibault, the MD-620 and the P.1127 have close ties in the 1958-1960 era.
One can considered the MD-620 to be the closest thing from a Harrier Dassault ever designed, but they rejected it probably because of its subsonic speed - the AdA wanted supersonic, so Dassault went for separate jet engines - 8*RB-162 + 1*TF-30.

For the record Dassault build three Mirave VSTOL prototypes
- Balzac 001
This was the Mirage III-01 1956 prototype that was literally butchered (and made subsonic): the Atar was replaced by an Orpheus + eight RB-108
Flown between 1962 and 1965, crashed two times with two killed, second crash ended its career
- Mirage III-V-01
The only one that survived (it is at Le Bourget museum, without the lift engines). A monster with 1*TF-106 (a SNECMA TF-30 build under licence) and 8*RB-162
- Mirage III-V-02
For all its flaws (and there was tons of them) the Mirage III-V-02 reached Mach 2 in september 1966 even though it was after a conventionnal take-off and landing - and by the way it crashed two month later.
 

Archibald

Banned
My first question is mission. Does France want something to police the Empire and project power versus such lesser opponents or does it require something to control the ocean in a battle against another major power fleet? Does this dovetail into a NATO fleet or be purely independent?

I can argue that a V/STOL Carrier might be a good compromise for France as it was for the UK. It gives you air power, albeit not as fully capable, near anywhere you can steam the task group into range. Falklands is a great example of how just a little air power was worth it. If France only really needs something to keep Bears off its ASW work in the Atlantic or drop some iron on the natives in a limited banana dust up then why not follow the UK lead? It fits a NATO mission with utility in projecting independent French power, a win-win to France.

Would the added emphasis on V/STOL aircraft pushed the UK and France closer, or drawn Dornier into a greater role in the field? Could that have given the European aerospace industry the lead in the field such that the now F35 was a European led counter part to our F22 project? Would the defense side look more like Boeing versus Airbus? Plus export potential for this niche war ship class.

Many worms fall out of this can.

France may very well go for a mixed fleet - the two Clemenceaus (started in 1955, laid down in 1958, in service by 1962-64)
There was the old Arromanches used as a training carrier and helicopter carrier before it was retired in 1975, and of course the Jeanne d'Arc.
The French Navy loved old Arromanches because it was a versatile platform and hence in 1972 the PH-75 project got started to replace it - kind of French Invincible-class helocarriers that could certainly have flown Harriers from its deck.

The PH-75 was a nuclear-powered ship which ballooned into a Clemenceau-successor that become the Charles de Gaulle carrier, but initially it was to have conventional machinery from the F-67 frigates

So here's my take at French Harriers

- in 1974 the French Navy buy them as ground attack aircrafts to replace the Etendard IV, so no Super Etendard. Although (at first glance) you would need to thrown Dassault under a bus to achieve that, the French Navy had in fact slightly more independance than the AdA vis-a-vis Dassault - they bought Crusaders in 1963, and A-4s, A-7s were considered to replace the Etendards IV in 1972 (beside the much maligned Jaguar M)

Big advantage for Harriers: they can land on the Jeanne d'Arc, Arromanches, and Arromanches planned successor, the PH-75. It is very possible that the French Navy buys a ship like the Invincible, or the Ocean helocarrier derivative.

The French Navy badly wanted a three-carrier fleet and the scrapping of Arromanches in 1974 was badly felt.

The French Harriers won't be Sea Harriers as per the RN, because we had Crusaders for the interceptor role.

I think the French Navy would be happy with the RAF Harrier Mk.3 provided they could drop Exocets (but the Sea Harriers carried Sea Eagle ASMs) and AN-52s (again Sea Harriers carried the WE-177, so no issue either)
 
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CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Biggest weakness of V/TOL is range and payload. 1960s helicopters were fairly limited on all parts of the flight envelope, great for short hops, less so for any sort of range. (to a degree this is still the case, one of the major weaknesses in today's USN is in long range, high loiter time, ASW assets since the early retirement of the S-3).

It very much depends on the proposed mission, but 1960s tech produces a very weak, but still high cost, asset. If mission parameters allow for it the smarter course is to go with LHA, perhaps with a strengthened/heat treated deck to handle the landing of a Harrier equivalent. A V/TOL carrier isn't a proper strike platform to begin with, the air wing is simply too weak, even with 2010 tech. The British had to send two decks to put a quarter of CATOBAR air wing into action against the Falklands) while the lack of a proper long loiter AEW platform makes it far too vulnerable (as was also illustrated by the Falklands engagements). The F-35 will alter that slightly, but the number of aircraft that can be operated is still quite low. As a sea control ship an LHA, with say 20 Harriers, would be a useful asset (the USN looked at this option back in the early 70's, and the current force of assault ships has the secondary role built into the design).
 
If mission parameters allow for it the smarter course is to go with LHA, perhaps with a strengthened/heat treated deck to handle the landing of a Harrier equivalent. A V/TOL carrier isn't a proper strike platform to begin with, the air wing is simply too weak, even with 2010 tech.
In the OP we're keeping Clemenceau and Foch, just converting them to V/STOL. So, we should have ample space for a strike carrier sized air wing.
 

Ramontxo

Donor
Michel Wibault was instrumental in early history of the P.1127, while the Balzac and Mirage III-V were utterly impractical and crazy.

The Harrier was tested on Foch and Clemenceau and even on the Jeanne d'Arc helicopter carrier, ad there was also the Arromanches.

Very much so. Some one(Bill Gunston?) wrote tha a multi engine aircraft is only more safe than a single engined one if it can afford to lose one and still work... The Mirage IIIV* had nine... I am not arguing against the French going for a VSTOL carrier except that it would not be with a Mirage IIIV. Now maybe if the British Government goes on with the Mirage IVS then you can arrange the Freng to buy out of home, but that is not easy...
http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A7x9...age_IIIV/RK=0/RS=_AEpycEQ0kPVpHuk7N_DaPI3_To-
 

Archibald

Banned
Beyond Foch, Clemenceau, Arromanches and Jeanne d'Arc there were also the LPDs - Ouragan-class and Foudre-class
I wonder if Harriers could operate from their decks - it seems the RN flew Harriers from Tiger-class cruisers, so maybe it was possible.

Ouragan_DN-SC-90-08859s.jpg
 
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