So, Bavarian Kingdom then...![]()
Again no one can break up Germany ever but nobody has any problem to balkanize France in a german victory. A Germany without rhineland might not have the power to start WWII.
Agreed, but how do you prevent the Rhineland wanting to re-unify with Germany unless France is prepared to squash any attempt to bring that about? As IOTL the status of the Rhineland is going to be a highly emotive issue for the Nazis and other Nationalist groups to try and exploit. The problem with OTL's Versailles was that while public opinion in the Entente Powers wanted a harsh peace, it wasn't prepared to pay the blood price of enforcing that peace. That created the worst of both Worlds, an angry, humiliated Germany wanting revenge and an indifferent Entente that didn't see the danger until it was too late.
That might work.How to prevent Rhineland wanting to reunify with Germany ? Easy. Rhineland goes socialist, Bavaria and Baden-Wurtemberg (assuming they get independance, best way with a King so there is opposition to reunification at the top) goes moderate conservative while the rest goes fascist.
That might work. Could there have been a German civil war after WWI?How to prevent Rhineland wanting to reunify with Germany ? Easy. Rhineland goes socialist, Bavaria and Baden-Wurtemberg (assuming they get independance, best way with a King so there is opposition to reunification at the top) goes moderate conservative while the rest goes fascist.
How to prevent Rhineland wanting to reunify with Germany ? Easy. Rhineland goes socialist, Bavaria and Baden-Wurtemberg (assuming they get independance, best way with a King so there is opposition to reunification at the top) goes moderate conservative while the rest goes fascist.
But like some have say they won't have the will to do anything about it.Yes, but I think you greatly overestimate the tolerance of the Allies for a socialist government in Western Europe, especially at the height of the Russian Revolution.
That might work. Could there have been a German civil war after WWI?
Yes, but I think you greatly overestimate the tolerance of the Allies for a socialist government in Western Europe, especially at the height of the Russian Revolution.
Again no one can break up Germany ever but nobody has any problem to balkanize France in a german victory. A Germany without rhineland might not have the power to start WWII.
Agreed, but how do you prevent the Rhineland wanting to re-unify with Germany unless France is prepared to squash any attempt to bring that about? As IOTL the status of the Rhineland is going to be a highly emotive issue for the Nazis and other Nationalist groups to try and exploit. The problem with OTL's Versailles was that while public opinion in the Entente Powers wanted a harsh peace, it wasn't prepared to pay the blood price of enforcing that peace. That created the worst of both Worlds, an angry, humiliated Germany wanting revenge and an indifferent Entente that didn't see the danger until it was too late.
What if a civil war breaks out while the treaty of Versailles is being negotiated? It did take nearly a year in OTL and Germany was very unstable so it is very possible. Maybe Trade Unionist/Socialist take over the Rhineland and separatists take over Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg then the rest of Germany is left as a rump state that will probably fall to fascists in 10-15 years. The Allies, sick of war, could stop the sides fighting then they write up a treaty breaking of the rebel held areas as new states. Their people are happy that Germany is being punished for WWI, the governments are happy that they don't have to deal with Germany, the rebels are happy that they get what they want and while Germany is not happy it blames the rebels rather than the Allies.That might work. Could there have been a German civil war after WWI?
The Rhineland was under allied military occupation following the signing of the Armistice in November 1918. They occupied everything west of the Rhine, plus three bridgeheads. A social Democrat government in the Rhineland along the same lines as Ebert's would be acceptable to them, but Socialist and Marxist would not.Maybe Trade Unionist/Socialist take over the Rhineland...
The Rhineland was under allied military occupation following the signing of the Armistice in November 1918. They occupied everything west of the Rhine, plus three bridgeheads. A social Democrat government in the Rhineland along the same lines as Ebert's would be acceptable to them, but Socialist and Marxist would not.
But the socialist governments in Berlin always tried to get rid of the occupation - why should that be different for a socialist government in the Rhineland?
In any case, the question is how to get a stable partition over the long run. It's not sufficient to have a catholic-conservative Southern Germany, a socialist Western Germany and a protestant-fascist eastern Germany with partial backing by France and Belgium. We had a Leninist Eastern Germany and a capitalist Western Germany IOTL both heavily backed by supwerpowers and we still saw reunification. The question is how to get several states stable, economically prosperous, and different enough to never try unification.
Xgentis, will you please stop axe-grinding for once and point to actual threads where France is being balkanized after a German victory.
To be fair Wallonia wasn't part of France for a long time.OTL when Wallonia was separated from France after the Napoleonic Wars. Several map in the map thread.
What if a civil war breaks out while the treaty of Versailles is being negotiated? It did take nearly a year in OTL and Germany was very unstable so it is very possible. Maybe Trade Unionist/Socialist take over the Rhineland and separatists take over Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg then the rest of Germany is left as a rump state that will probably fall to fascists in 10-15 years. The Allies, sick of war, could stop the sides fighting then they write up a treaty breaking of the rebel held areas as new states. Their people are happy that Germany is being punished for WWI, the governments are happy that they don't have to deal with Germany, the rebels are happy that they get what they want and while Germany is not happy it blames the rebels rather than the Allies.
The Rhineland was under allied military occupation following the signing of the Armistice in November 1918. They occupied everything west of the Rhine, plus three bridgeheads. A social Democrat government in the Rhineland along the same lines as Ebert's would be acceptable to them, but Socialist and Marxist would not.
But the socialist governments in Berlin always tried to get rid of the occupation - why should that be different for a socialist government in the Rhineland?
In any case, the question is how to get a stable partition over the long run. It's not sufficient to have a catholic-conservative Southern Germany, a socialist Western Germany and a protestant-fascist eastern Germany with partial backing by France and Belgium. We had a Leninist Eastern Germany and a capitalist Western Germany IOTL both heavily backed by supwerpowers and we still saw reunification. The question is how to get several states stable, economically prosperous, and different enough to never try unification.
Catholic states of the south of Germany split of due to regionalism and the entente supporting them to punish germany. After a few years and the breakup of Austria Hungary and worried about alt-fascist/protestant Germany (2nr reich minus southern states, the part that go polish, Danish, Belgian and French, and a French backed independant Rhineland) rearmement and irredentism push the southern states very close to switzerland and austria. The entente accept unification of Bavaria and austria and Baden-wurtemberg with Switzerland or Austria (there was a movement for it after WWI IIRC). Meanwhile social-democrats come to power in the Rheinland State and when the popular front is elected in France get aligned with France.
Or else you could have the same scenario with the norteastern part of Germany going communist instead of fascist (strongest KPD and USPD before it was in Saxony and Brandenburg IIRC) that align with Stalin. Rhineland align with France and England, while Austria/Bavaria align with Fascist Italy
OTL when Wallonia was separated from France after the Napoleonic Wars. Several map in the map thread.