France Fights On

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Whatif in June 1940 France moved its government and armies to Algiers (and thus Vichy France never truly existed) ?

There has been a long lasting misunderstanding about the France Fights On project.
It all started ten years ago but some years back there was a split in the team.

On one hand is this, in French
http://www.1940lafrancecontinue.org/ (with the according forum and books, the story is now rrunning well into 1943)

On the other hand, France Fights On - now known as APOD
http://francefightson.yuku.com/

What I've discovered is that
Somewhat all the work done before the team split - and in english language.

Richelieu fighting Bismarck in the Denmark straits :)
http://francefightson.yuku.com/topi...ussion-French-Procurement-May-30#.VIGNkLGua_0
MAY 24th: Just after midnight, Suffolk temporarily losts contact with Bismarck, but regained it by 2h45 am. By then Hood and Richelieu have altered course back to due North.

British destroyers which have been sent to search for contact at 2h10 were not immediately recalled and would arrive late on the action place. Both German ships are detected by Richelieu at 5h42.

Admiral Holland orders to close the range as soon as possible and both Allied ships approach the enemy 30° to port. This closes fire arcs for Hood but is perfect for Richelieu. Algerie trails behind the French battleship as the third ship of the squadron, with the four French DDs by her side.

At 5h49 Admiral Holland orders fire to be concentrated on the enemy lead ship - actually the Prinz Eugen. The Richelieu Gunnery officer however is not mistaken and the French captain signals to both Hood and Algérie that Bismarck is the second ship in the German line. Allied ships open fire at 5h53 at a 24,500m range. Richelieu concentrates at once against Bismarck as Hood fires first against Prinz Eugen before shifting fire. Algérie fires on Prinz Eugen.

At 5h55 a Prinz-Eugen salvo hits the Hood setting-off ammunition in the ready-use lockers and causing a huge fire.

At 5h59 the Prinz Eugen gunnery officer divides his fire against Richelieu and Hood. At the same time the Bismarck fifth salvo lands around HMS Hood. One or may be two shells penetrate the old Battlecruiser belt and detonate in the 4in magazine,whose explosion set-off the after two 15in magazines. Hood blows-up second later at 6h01.

In the meantime however Bismarck is hit twice, on the bow and in the front boiler room, by Richelieu. The German battleship is slowed down to 25kts.
Prinz-Eugen is also hit twice in quick succession by Algérie at 6h00 and 6h02. Seing the dramatic fate of Hood, the Richelieu commanding officer decides to slightly open range, stabilizing at 22,000m. This range enables Algérie to fight against Prinz-Eugen from her immune zone (Prinz-Eugen has nearly no IZ against Algérie).

Bismarck is now free to concentrate on Richelieu, but RN cruisers Suffolk and Norfolk began to close in, opening fire on the slowed down battleship by 6h15.

Richelieu is hit 3 times by Bismarck between 6h03 and 6h10, the last hit damaging "A" turret wich is temporarily out of action. However Bismarck suffers two major hits, one destroying the "Bruno" turret and damaging the "Anton", and the second near the bridge. Fire control has to be moved to the secondary position.
Prinz-Eugen is able to hit 4 times Algérie but twice her shells don't explode (faulty fuzes) and the two others are dished out by the French cruiser belt. Algérie on the other hand scores thre hits destroying PE aft fire-control position and "X" and "Y" turrets.

By 6h12 the Richelieu commander, who has signaled Admiral Tovey the loss of Hood, orders the two British cruisers present to be ready for a torpedo attack, combined with French destroyers. The gun duel between the two battleships goes on without significant results till 6h28 as the French battleship fires with just one turret and Bismarck Gunnery control is shaky following hits on her superstructure by British 8in shells.

At 6h28 however, Richelieu "A" turret is repaired despite two more Bismarck hits, one slightly under the belt (underwater hit) causing some flooding and another aft setting the seaplane hangar on fire. Soon after Richelieu scores three hits in succession on Bismarck, two amidship of which one penetrates a turbine room, and one in the aft superstructure setting up a massive fire. Bismarck speed is again slowed down to 17kts. By then, the German battleship is heavily under fire of the two British cruisers which are scoring multiple hits against her superstructure.

Prinz-Eugen is unable to support her flagship as Algérie has clearly gained the upper hand. French shells have penetrated the German cruiser belt and her delicate high-pressure machinery has been severely damaged. With speed reduced to 14kts, PE begins to fall back but gets a temporary respite as Suffolk and Norfolk are focusing on Bismarck and Algérie too switches fire on the German battleships.

At 6h34 the Richelieu commander orders British destroyers which are racing toward the battle to attack the Prinz-Eugen as French destroyers are to focus on Bismarck, with support of now three heavy cruisers.

By 6h39 the four French destroyers, Le Hardi, L'Adroit, Foudroyant and Casque deliver a coordinated torpedo salvo (20 torpedoes) against Bismarck, which has been hit again by Richelieu and whose Gunnery Control positions are now disabled by the 8in shell rain she is suffering.

At 6h44, despite brutal Bismarck movements to avoid incoming torpedoes, three hits are scored, two forward (under "Anton" turret and under the bridge) and one aft (at the aft AA directors level). The battleship is again slowed down at now less than 10kts, and her fire becomes erratic. Richelieu closes in down to 10,000m and open fire at litterally close range (for 15in guns). Bismarck is now burning, and only her aft turret answers fire every 2 minutes.

At least six 15in hits are obtained by Richelieu between 6h49 and 6h53, two of them opening huge holes in the Bismarck hull and another forcing the Bismarck captain to flood aft magazines. Soon after however the French battleship "A" turret breaks down again. By 6h54, Norfolk delivers a torpedo attack, putting two fishes in Bismarck by 6h58. The German battleship is now nearly stopped, burning from stem to stern.

At 7h01, Suffolk on one side and the four French destroyers on the other, deliver a last torpedo attack at point blank range (2,000m). Multiple hits (may be up to 5) are obtained.

At 7h13 Bismarck rolls over and sinks. French destroyers will save 118 men and officers of her crew.

At 7h46 British destroyers close on the Prinz-Eugen sailing North at 12kts.

By 7h56 the German cruiser is hit by two topedoes, and stopped. By 8h42 Algérie, followed by Norfolk, close on the stopped cruiser. After trying to raise the German captain by radio to ask him to surrender his ship, both Allied cruisers open fire. They stop at 8h49 as it is obvious that her crew is scuttling the Prinz-Eugen. The ship sinks by the bow at 8h58. British destroyers save 131 men and officers including her Second Gunnery Officer, Kpt.Lt Paul Schmalenbach whose tales of Bismarck and Prinz-Eugen ends have become famous after war.
 
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Whatif in June 1940 France moved its government and armies to Algiers (and thus Vichy France never truly existed) ?

There has been a long lasting misunderstanding about the France Fights On project.
It all started ten years ago but some years back there was a split in the team.

On one hand is this, in French
http://www.1940lafrancecontinue.org/ (with the according forum and books, the story is now rrunning well into 1943)

On the other hand, France Fights On - now known as APOD
http://francefightson.yuku.com/

What I've discovered is that
Somewhat all the work done before the team split - and in english language.

Richelieu fighting Bismarck in the Denmark straits :)
http://francefightson.yuku.com/topi...ussion-French-Procurement-May-30#.VIGNkLGua_0


Poor Hood - she always buys it....

Im planning a follow on from my French fleet sinks the Graf Spee with Richelieu and Dunkerque with 3 Cruisers the Aircraft Carrier Bearn (with US Built Aircraft) and 4 French DDs Guarding the northern passage and Both KGVs and Hood + Furious and Renown along with 2 Heavy Crusiers and 6 DDs Guarding the Southern Passage with Nelrod and freinds further to the west.
 
this has come up on here before, and it's one of my favorite PODs... mainly because of how it affects the war in N. Africa. One of my books claims the French could have formed 15 rifle divisions from existing troops in Algeria (and presuming some would have made it out of the debacle in France) which would both be horribly limited in mobility (few trucks and tanks) and have the best of the French air force (rather easy for them to flee France). Not to mention the French fleet. Fuel would have been a problem. However, this force in being right there in N. Africa would have been a boon to the Allies once the USA joins the war and is able to equip them...
 
I did a version of this.

Then I adapted it into a novel.

But it looks like no one will buy it because it's "not their sort of book".

:(
 
I've always liked FFO, but during the years I've grown to like APOD more, as it's much more realistic.
As the creators of FFO once said, being realistic isn't it's goal; it's also seen as a therapeutic exercise considering how WWII went for France.

Poor Hood - she always buys it....

Im planning a follow on from my French fleet sinks the Graf Spee with Richelieu and Dunkerque with 3 Cruisers the Aircraft Carrier Bearn (with US Built Aircraft) and 4 French DDs Guarding the northern passage and Both KGVs and Hood + Furious and Renown along with 2 Heavy Crusiers and 6 DDs Guarding the Southern Passage with Nelrod and freinds further to the west.

The captain of Béarn better have a crystal ball. At 21 knots she's going to need that. She's obsolete and I've always thought of her as a HMS Argus on steroids; previously an experimental ship and during WWII mostly to be used as a trainingcarrier/escort carrier with limited utility.
 
Hood is not always a victim in ATL

Poor Hood - she always buys it....

In Jan Niemczyk "Death of a Giant" on the navweaps.com discussion board Holland does not make the turn at 18K yards but continues to close
meaning the OTL critical hit strikes elsewhere




Astrodragons "The Whale Has wings" on this site has the KGVs being built with 3x3 15" and 4.5" secondaries ... so being ready earlier

Hood is left untouched but at TTL Denmark Strait has only a minor role

Jan also had a "Further Adventures of HMS Hood" saga (which I cant locate)
Hood survives Denmark Strait, is repaired in the USA and goes to the Pacific working with both USN and RN task groups
 
I've always liked FFO, but during the years I've grown to like APOD more, as it's much more realistic.
More realistic? On the nuts and bolts issues certainly. They have apparently decided though that even with France fighting on that the war is going to finished at roughly the same time as our timeline, forcing them to have to find reasons to drag it out when some of the changes would of likely seen it end sooner. It's certainly a useful source for research but just on the strength of their central premise I'm cautious with it.
 
More realistic? On the nuts and bolts issues certainly. They have apparently decided though that even with France fighting on that the war is going to finished at roughly the same time as our timeline, forcing them to have to find reasons to drag it out when some of the changes would of likely seen it end sooner. It's certainly a useful source for research but just on the strength of their central premise I'm cautious with it.
Didn't they made part of the french colonial empire follow the french occupied government rather then the legitimate government?
 
More realistic? On the nuts and bolts issues certainly. They have apparently decided though that even with France fighting on that the war is going to finished at roughly the same time as our timeline, forcing them to have to find reasons to drag it out when some of the changes would of likely seen it end sooner. It's certainly a useful source for research but just on the strength of their central premise I'm cautious with it.

I'll have to conceive that point. IIRC they had some practical reasons for having the war end at the same moment (I thought they had already researched and written that part?) and f.ex. the fall of Singapore.
Some of the reasons they have for the war dragging on more are pretty good though, such as more cooperation between the Axis and less victorydisease due to more early war Axis losses.

The FFO storyline has some pretty big holes which APOD mostly fixed IMHO.
It has been years ago since I read FFO, but IIRC FFO has France still lose metropolitan France, evacuate to Northern Africa, pretty much instantly singlehandedly defeat the Italians whilst doing that and not to forget in the meantime have more success in the Atlantic against the German navy then the RN.
An example is that they completely disregard the utter lack of infrastructure such as airfields in French North Africa and have the French at once efficiently use hundreds of aircraft from there.

There's nothing wrong with liking FFO, however one shouldn't be afraid to admit that's probably because it's nice to have some SuperFrench around instead of the normal Germanwank timelines around. :D
 
Meanwhile, I can't read FFO because I don't speak French. And the current APOD forum appears to be full of rants about how horrible the UK NHS is and how Roosevelt and Churchill were dirty commie traitors for allying with Stalin. That rather turned me quickly off my attempt to read it.
 
Meanwhile, I can't read FFO because I don't speak French. And the current APOD forum appears to be full of rants about how horrible the UK NHS is and how Roosevelt and Churchill were dirty commie traitors for allying with Stalin. That rather turned me quickly off my attempt to read it.

That too killed it for me. Also, many years ago, when it was still one team, they had a very long argument about the Japanese commando attack on the Panama Canal Zone. The heavy defenses and emergency dams of the CZ were repeatedly mentioned, but... well, I'll let the links speak for themselves:

http://warships1discussionboards.yu...evelopment-of-Sixth-Fleet?page=1#.Uc43tJy5d-0

http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/reply/25452/France-Fights-on-Panama#reply-25452

In hindsight, this might have sowed the seeds for the later split in the team.
 
Why did they split?
What I've heard second hand pretty much mirrors what people have said in this thread - FFO is something of a nationalistic wank which doesn't bother with a lot of the nitty-gritty details whilst APoD is very much interested in those kind of things, it effectively became a clash of styles/ideas. Of course APoD then started off with their own silliness with regards to when the war finishes but that's a separate matter.
 
I did a version of this.

Then I adapted it into a novel.

But it looks like no one will buy it because it's "not their sort of book".

:(

How many agents and/or publishers have you queried? I think JK Rowling went through a whole bunch before she found a buyer for HARRY POTTER.
 
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