France as the core of the HRE

[The Professor]

Basically what happens if we reverse East and West Francias so that West Francia recreates the Holy Roman Empire?

What impact does this have on the German duchies?

What happens to the peripheral states in Britain, Scandinavia, Spain, Easter Europe?

 

[Marko]

HRE would become a slightly contraced Frankish empire leaving space for a central european slavic pandam to OTL germanies.

 

[Blackfox5]

Well, West Francia established the Capetian monarchy while East Francia constituted the Ottonian empire.

So if we say West Francia established an HRE equivalent, are we saying France is less centralized and weaker than OTL? Are we saying that France becomes the head of the entire HRE (both West and East Francia)? Or just that the Kings of France become recognized as the universal monarch of the West?

If it is the later, it means France MUST control northern Italy and Rome so that the Pope has the reason and capability of crowning the French Kings the Western Emperor.

If that is the case, then East Francia (Germany) can do whatever they want. Without the trouble caused by attempting to rule Italy beyond the alps, some hereditary German monarchy is likely to develop which means a stronger Germany. Someone will eventually dominate Germany and build a monarchy just like the Capetians did in France and the Ottonians did in Germany, it's just that they won't be tempted with the poisoned fruit of being Emperor over Italy as well.

In that case, France - as Emperor of the West - will be in a stronger position initially, but will get sucked into Italian politics just like the Germans did. We could either see a super France that reconstitutes the old border of the Western Empire, including a push into Spain against the Moors, or France seeing its power diverted to ongoing attempts to prompt up a royal power in an Italy dominated by republic city-states.

 

[kasumigenx]

Well, West Francia established the Capetian monarchy while East Francia constituted the Ottonian empire.

So if we say West Francia established an HRE equivalent, are we saying France is less centralized and weaker than OTL? Are we saying that France becomes the head of the entire HRE (both West and East Francia)? Or just that the Kings of France become recognized as the universal monarch of the West?

If it is the later, it means France MUST control northern Italy and Rome so that the Pope has the reason and capability of crowning the French Kings the Western Emperor.

If that is the case, then East Francia (Germany) can do whatever they want. Without the trouble caused by attempting to rule Italy beyond the alps, some hereditary German monarchy is likely to develop which means a stronger Germany. Someone will eventually dominate Germany and build a monarchy just like the Capetians did in France and the Ottonians did in Germany, it's just that they won't be tempted with the poisoned fruit of being Emperor over Italy as well.

In that case, France - as Emperor of the West - will be in a stronger position initially, but will get sucked into Italian politics just like the Germans did. We could either see a super France that reconstitutes the old border of the Western Empire, including a push into Spain against the Moors, or France seeing its power diverted to ongoing attempts to prompt up a royal power in an Italy dominated by republic city-states.

Perhaps if France gains control of Burgundy earlier and Bertha of Burgundy marries Robert I first and gives him healthy children.

 

[LordKalvan]

There is no guarantee at all that East Frankia (aka Germanies) would become a centralised kingdom even in the absence of the lure of the imperial crown.
The Rhenish lands would gravitate toward West Frankia, same as Burgundy and the Low Countries.
There would certainly be a strong Saxon duchy and an equally strong (or stronger) Bavarian duchy (which is likely to expand toward the east, as IOTL taking Austria and Carinthia). This southern duchy might become involved with Bohemia and Hungary (or might get sucked toward North Italy, like the Welfs did). In the former case, it will be likely to be the bulwark against the Hungars in the 9th century and push eastward in the 10 and 11th; in the latter one, the Hugars would still have to be dealt with, but later on the Bavarians might get tangled with the Western Frankia for the control of north Italy.
Saxony would be involved with Bohemia and Poland, and I would think they would be less involved in TTL HRE.

The western Frankish ascendancy would mean that they have been able to deal successfully with the Vikings (and thet there is no Normandy ITTL). Maybe a great victory against the Norse would be TTL founding myth for Western Frankia (somehow like Otto's victory against the Hungars). If Western Frankia can manage to keep under control the south of France they would be in an enviable position (the key to success here might be an early crusade-alike against the Moors in Spain).

OTOH, a stronger West Frankia would probably divert more and more Norsemen toward the British Isles. They might become a Norse (or Danish) kingdom, while possibly the southern England kingdoms become HRE vassals to survive.
Again a crusade-alike scenario, if the Norsemen don't convert early.

 

[Janprimus]

There isn't a guarantee, but with West Francia more involved in Burgundy and Italy, then East Francia (with Lotharingia) could potentially establish a more stable monarchy. It wouldn't be a centralized state, but neither was OTL France during the middle ages; but like OTL it might evolve into one.

OTOH if a West Francian imperial dynasty lasts longer, they might do better than the OTL HRE. However the focus of East Francia, without Italy and Burgundy will now be firmly on Central Europe.

 

[LordKalvan]

There isn't a guarantee, but with West Francia more involved in Burgundy and Italy, then East Francia (with Lotharingia) could potentially establish a more stable monarchy. It wouldn't be a centralized state, but neither was OTL France during the middle ages; but like OTL it might evolve into one.

OTOH if a West Francian imperial dynasty lasts longer, they might do better than the OTL HRE. However the focus of East Francia, without Italy and Burgundy will now be firmly on Central Europe.

Burgundy and Italy were both Lotharingia, and IMHO they will gravitate toward the imperial crown. I might also see Bavaria coming into the sphere of West Frankia (or maybe becoming a battleground). Which would push East Frankia toward the east, and possibly the north too.

 

[kasumigenx]

Burgundy and Italy were both Lotharingia, and IMHO they will gravitate toward the imperial crown. I might also see Bavaria coming into the sphere of West Frankia (or maybe becoming a battleground). Which would push East Frankia toward the east, and possibly the north too.

I think he is referring to Lorraine not Lotharingia, I forgot that Burgundy and Italy could fall to West Francia, I think if France gains Burgundy the earlier France will have a border similar to OTL borders earlier.

 

[LordKalvan]

I think he is referring to Lorraine not Lotharingia, I forgot that Burgundy and Italy could fall to West Francia, I think if France gains Burgundy the earlier France will have a border similar to OTL borders earlier.

But Lorraine would also likely fall to Western Frankia, or at least become a debatable land.

 

[Janprimus]

Burgundy and Italy were both Lotharingia, and IMHO they will gravitate toward the imperial crown. I might also see Bavaria coming into the sphere of West Frankia (or maybe becoming a battleground). Which would push East Frankia toward the east, and possibly the north too.

No, Burgundy, Italy and Lotharingia were a part of Middle Francia; I was referring to the Northern part of Middle Francia, which was named Lotharingia after king Lothar II a son of emperor Lothar I.

I really doubt, that any of the stem duchies would gravitate towards West Francia, did Champagne, Bourgogne etc. gravitate towards Eastern Francia IOTL?

Depending on the POD Lotharingia could gravitate towards West Francia; or perhaps their own line of kings could also survive.

 

[LordKalvan]

No, Burgundy, Italy and Lotharingia were a part of Middle Francia; I was referring to the Northern part of Middle Francia, which was named Lotharingia after king Lothar II a son of emperor Lothar I.

I really doubt, that any of the stem duchies would gravitate towards West Francia, did Champagne, Bourgogne etc. gravitate towards Eastern Francia IOTL?

Depending on the POD Lotharingia could graviate towards West Francia; or perhaps their own line of kings could also survive.

AFAIK, what you call "Middle Francia" was always known as "Lotharingia", from emperor Lothar.
Anyway it's irrelevant. However, if Western Frankia has to hold the imperial crown they need both Burgundy and the Low Countries on one side and Italy on the other one.
Again IIRC the county of Champagne was originally under the HRE, so eastern Frankia. Burgundy/Bourgogne was in the kingdom of Arles. OTOH the OTL HR emperors had a lot of troubles in keeping the great German feudataries and the Italian cities under something reasonably resembling control, so their capacity to influence the great lords in Burgundy and the Low Countries became lesser and lesser.
Quite likely even in a TTL where West Frankia gets the imperial crown the reigning dinasty will find too hard to herd all the cats, same as the East Frankian emperors did.

 

[Scipio Africanus]

Janprimus is right, Lotharingia is names after Emperor Lothar's son, also named Lothar. I am 100% sure. Also, Champagne was never under East Frankish/German suzerainty, although it was invaded several times during the 10th century.

As for the OP, a good POD might be Charles the Bald not dying after he was crowned Emperor. He was fairly old by medieval standards at the time, but if he had lived another 5 years he might have been able to unify his Frankish crown with the Imperial crown. Here though, the problem of his son and heir, Louis the Stammerer comes into play. He was manifestly incompetent. However, Charles the Balds grandson, especially Carloman, would have been far more able rulers if they had lived. So if Charles the Bald consolidates his position and passes the imperial crown onto his grandson Carloman, you could have the state being discussed here. However, it would probably still have centralization problems, but hey, you never know.

Scipio

 

[thekingsguard]

There is no guarantee at all that East Frankia (aka Germanies) would become a centralised kingdom even in the absence of the lure of the imperial crown.
The Rhenish lands would gravitate toward West Frankia, same as Burgundy and the Low Countries.
There would certainly be a strong Saxon duchy and an equally strong (or stronger) Bavarian duchy (which is likely to expand toward the east, as IOTL taking Austria and Carinthia). This southern duchy might become involved with Bohemia and Hungary (or might get sucked toward North Italy, like the Welfs did). In the former case, it will be likely to be the bulwark against the Hungars in the 9th century and push eastward in the 10 and 11th; in the latter one, the Hugars would still have to be dealt with, but later on the Bavarians might get tangled with the Western Frankia for the control of north Italy.
Saxony would be involved with Bohemia and Poland, and I would think they would be less involved in TTL HRE.

The western Frankish ascendancy would mean that they have been able to deal successfully with the Vikings (and thet there is no Normandy ITTL). Maybe a great victory against the Norse would be TTL founding myth for Western Frankia (somehow like Otto's victory against the Hungars). If Western Frankia can manage to keep under control the south of France they would be in an enviable position (the key to success here might be an early crusade-alike against the Moors in Spain).

OTOH, a stronger West Frankia would probably divert more and more Norsemen toward the British Isles. They might become a Norse (or Danish) kingdom, while possibly the southern England kingdoms become HRE vassals to survive.
Again a crusade-alike scenario, if the Norsemen don't convert early.

I could certainly see this in a form - a West Francia HRE would likely, at least in the short term, have control and influence over Italy, the Low Countries, Burgundy, and maybe Spain and the Rhineland would likely be contested between them and East Francia. In the long term, it would start losing them like Germany did.

The East Francia region may solidify into a number of states that will eventually form Germany. Whether it is Saxony, Bavaria, Austria or someone else that forms it is the question.

With a more centralized France during the Viking Age we may see more of the Norse focus on Britian and Ireland, and we already butterflied away Normandy and William of Normandy with it. We may see Canute and his kin form a unified Scandinavia, one with a firm grip over a far more Nordic British isles.

With such a strong nation on it's border, Christian Spain will have a much more serious morale boost, and may get a few crusades directed toward al-Andalus.

 

[Janprimus]

I could certainly see this in a form - a West Francia HRE would likely, at least in the short term, have control and influence over Italy, the Low Countries, Burgundy, and maybe Spain and the Rhineland would likely be contested between them and East Francia. In the long term, it would start losing them like Germany did.

The East Francia region may solidify into a number of states that will eventually form Germany. Whether it is Saxony, Bavaria, Austria or someone else that forms it is the question.

With a more centralized France during the Viking Age we may see more of the Norse focus on Britian and Ireland, and we already butterflied away Normandy and William of Normandy with it. We may see Canute and his kin form a unified Scandinavia, one with a firm grip over a far more Nordic British isles.

With such a strong nation on it's border, Christian Spain will have a much more serious morale boost, and may get a few crusades directed toward al-Andalus.

I agree, that a West Francia HRE would have to control Burgundy and Italy, but Lotharingia (northern Middle Francia) could go either way, especially with West Francia having to focus on Burgundy and Italy.
Instead of turning east this West Francia HRE as the leading Catholic monarchs might prefer crusading in Hispania instead.
However West Francia becoming and staying centralized will be tricky, though not impossible; the OTL HRE under the Ottonians was further on that road than their OTL French counterpart, but eventually things turned out differently.

OTOH I disagree about East Francia, I don't see it disintegrating into a number of states. Sure it was an elective monarchy with a few strong stem duchies and it will evolve into a German Kingdom. In fact, if a dynasty, whether Carolingian or Ottonian (maybe Salian), manages to survive long enough, then like IOTL the Capetians managed to do in France*, the elective monarchy might develop into a hereditary monarchy.

(*= IIRC France was formally elective until Philip August).

I can even see East Francia managing to gain Lotharingia, since like I wrote earlier, West Francia will be preoccupied in Burgundy and especially Italy. The situation in Central Europe might be a bit different too, East Francia, later the German Kingdom, won't have to focus on Italy, so I can see them being more successful there.
For instance IOTL East Francia/the German kingdom, temporarily lost parts of their (northern) East marches after a Wendic uprising, in part, because they were preoccupied in Italy; in fact the Imperial army had suffered a defeat in Italy. ITTL a ruler of East Francia could send his entire army to crush the rebelling Wends.

A East Francia/German kingdom could still control the same territory north of the Alps the HRE did IOTL 1000 AD. However the kingdom of Burgundy (either the HRE & king of West Francia is their king or they have their own vassal king) will be a part of this West Francian HRE, and the HRE as king of Italy will also (nominally) control the marquisate of Tuscany, Lombardy, the march of Verona, the march of Istria, Pentapolis, the duchy of Spoleto and (disputed by the Papacy) the Papal states (the latter as HRE).
BTW the control of Burgundy is a practical one, since in order to be able to have influence in Italy and directly on the Papacy, this West Francian HRE will have to control mountain passes leading into Italy.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/ff/Holy_Roman_Empire_1000_map-en.svg?uselang=de

 

[The Professor]

Some interesting ideas here, and if I can be forgiven for the analoguising below...

So the Wends can be seen as a rough Breton analogue.
The East Frankish Lowlands could be contrued as Aquitaine.
And with the West Frankish making the Hispanic taifas into the Balts


With the Normans gone back North coudl we see a surviving Kingdom of York?
I can see Kent as leaning closely to the West Frankish HRE.
Perhaps Cornwall might be closer to Brittany here too - could we have the WFHREmperor support a Kingdom of Brittany-Cornwall ala Bohemia?

 

[kasumigenx]

Perhaps, the Occitans could have a better fate than in OTL..