France and Britain beat France in 1941. What do they do?

In some ways, unconditional surrender seems like a very odd outcome for a major war between powers. Even Versailles and Vienna saw negotiations and politcking.

So, let's propose that France doesn't fall in 1940 (they went off gold earlier in the 1930s, and had a healthier economy, so their had a larger military force, or something).

1940 and 1941 sees grinding attrition, and the Allies begin to turn the tide. Germany runs low on resource,s as Stalin alters their agreement. He probably makes another go at Finland, or moves towards Turkey. Some questions:

1) Does Hitler get overthrown? We usually think this, but he wasn't overthrown in 1944 or 1945... why are the earlier plotters luckier?

2) If you are Prime Minister Churchill and President Reynaud, what do you want to do with Germany? What's your plan for peace?

Is there a way to edit the title?
 
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I would add that unrestricted submarine warfare brings the US into the war.
Once the AEF arrives Stalin Attacks the German border. I think then Hitler gets overthrown.
 
Still the idea of Britain and France beating France in 1941 is very interesting. You'd need some sort of POD before 1900 where the Franks ended up with much more of Europe, one where France is big enough so that it can split into two mutually hostile countries at some point. Presumably here it would be Britain and Atlantic or Western France against Germanic or Eastern France?
 
So, let's propose that France doesn't fall in 1940 (they went off gold earlier in the 1930s, and had a healthier economy, so their had a larger military force, or something).
From what I've read it wasn't funding that beat them so much as the extreme fear of a new war and militant pacifism this engendered in the majority of populace and consequently politicians. When Neville Chamberlain came back from Munich with his agreement he was as wildly popular, if not more so, in France as he was in Britain. I can't find the exact quote now but it was basically 'It is worth suffering any insult or indignity if it means avoiding warfare' which seemingly summed up the French attitudes of the time.


How can France beat FRANCE???
Well I would argue that this happened in our timeline, both in the run-up to hostilities and then after the armistice with Vichy versus Free French. That or Faeelin just wrote the wrong country. ;)
 
From what I've read it wasn't funding that beat them so much as the extreme fear of a new war and militant pacifism this engendered in the majority of populace and consequently politicians. When Neville Chamberlain came back from Munich with his agreement he was as wildly popular, if not more so, in France as he was in Britain. I can't find the exact quote now but it was basically 'It is worth suffering any insult or indignity if it means avoiding warfare' which seemingly summed up the French attitudes of the time.



Well I would argue that this happened in our timeline, both in the run-up to hostilities and then after the armistice with Vichy versus Free French. That or Faeelin just wrote the wrong country. ;)


I suppose you're technically right, France did beat France
 

Rex Mundi

Banned
The French who sided with the French round up the French who sided with the French and have the French executed for betraying the French to the French.
 

AdanALW

Banned
From what I've read it wasn't funding that beat them so much as the extreme fear of a new war and militant pacifism this engendered in the majority of populace and consequently politicians. When Neville Chamberlain came back from Munich with his agreement he was as wildly popular, if not more so, in France as he was in Britain. I can't find the exact quote now but it was basically 'It is worth suffering any insult or indignity if it means avoiding warfare' which seemingly summed up the French attitudes of the time.
If they hadn't been so pacifist even after declaring war! France took a German town in 1939, then retreat back behind the border. They believed it was going to be like WWI. But honestly, if the British and French hadn't launched a Phoney War in 1939, but an actual war, most of the Germany tanks and troops were in the East in Poland. They might have been able to attack Germany and reach Berlin fairly early, and certainly before 1945.

The less here is when you declare a war, you must actually go through and fight the war. That is a military move, not a diplomatic one.
 
Is the author here not requesting a WI regarding Churchill and Reynaud's dealings with Germany rather than a discussion of how Germany could have been defeated militarily with a POD of early 1940? :p
1940 and 1941 sees grinding attrition, and the Allies begin to turn the tide. Germany runs low on resource,s as Stalin alters their agreement. He probably makes another go at Finland, or moves towards Turkey.
I doubt Stalin would trade the prospect of a war against a crumbling Germany which carries the rewards of controlling the rest of Poland, Czechoslovakia and perhaps eastern Germany for a relatively backwater former province of the Russian Empire or even better control of the Black Sea and a gateway into the Middle East through Turkey. The latter two are opportunities which not only will continue to exist after 1941, but perhaps may be facilitated even more easily as Soviet public morale will increase after a short, brutal and successful war with Germany and the military will regain confidence, not to mention perhaps frightening the governments of those nations into a somewhat more submissive role.

As a result, I would state that it is highly probable that the Soviet Union would invade a collapsing National Socialist Germany - though when in 1941 and to what extent they'd advance to I am unsure of, but even just capturing the rest of Poland, Eastern Prussia and the Slovak Republic yields some fairly attractive centres of industry and commerce, not to mention technology, which can be gained without a war of attrition and massive casualties.

British and French revanchism would be lessened with a quick, decisive war (compared to the First World War and OTL) and a rapidly encroaching Soviet Union. Territorial integrity of Germany would be preserved, the National Socialist party would be disbanded and a number of the most senior leaders (including Hitler, if captured) are executed for war crimes or imprisoned for life, the SS, the mostly redundant SA and any other political and paramilitary arms of National Socialist Germany would also be disbanded, but for the most part it would be a less harsher version of the Treaty of Versailles. Germany would most likely be allowed to retain the Wehrmacht at full capacity in order to provide a bulwark against the Soviets, though the Kriegsmarine would be heavily reduced and the Luftwaffe may or may not take a reduction too. I heavily doubt that any technological restrictions would be imposed on Germany other than maybe chemical and biological warfare which Germany did not resort to on a large scale OTL anyway.

As to territorial concessions imposed on Germany, you could see some very small border changes in the favour of the allies on the Danish, French, Belgian and Dutch borders, but most likely not to the same extent as OTL and war reparations would be less severe in order to not make the same mistakes of the Treaty of Versailles and prop up the nation against Communism.

Regarding whether Hitler would be overthrown, well, it's certainly possible and a lot of assassination attempts did come close, but it all depends on how it is handled. It is likely that a short civil war might break out, helping Britain and France sweep through Germany even more easily and cause a conditional surrender when they cross the Rhine from a new German government? Otherwise, they may just have to enter Berlin to unseat the National Socialists.

The very interesting prospect is whether the Soviet Union would halt once the National Socialist government has collapsed and a new German government is instated or not.

Perhaps Stalin sees wisdom in securing his conquests and absorbing them, or perhaps he'd rather press for more of Europe and concessions from the Western Allies seeing as they would have been weakened by two years of war?
 
In some ways, unconditional surrender seems like a very odd outcome for a major war between powers. Even Versailles and Vienna saw negotiations and politcking.

The Battle of France didn't end in unconditional surrender. The French government signed an armistice at Compiègne. An unconditional surrender would have presumably meant no free zone in the south and the surrender of the French Navy.
 

Archibald

Banned
When Neville Chamberlain came back from Munich with his agreement he was as wildly popular, if not more so, in France as he was in Britain
There's a very funny story about that.

Daladier aircraft is to land at Le Bourget airport on its way back to Munich. Daladier was (for all his flaws) much more lucid than that... annoying Chamberlin.
And Daladier actually fear he might face an angry mob after landing. So the aircraft circle a little over Le Bourget, but of course it has to land in the end. And it lands, and the door open. Yet instead of rotten tomatoes Daladier is hailed by the crowd as the hero that saved peace for generations.
Well, Daladier is pretty stunned, then very appalled. He turns toward his aid and whisper in his ear

"Ah, les cons !" (fools !)

In the scenario the greatest unknows are indeed
- does Hitler gets overthrown, in which year, and by who ?
- does a German civil war follows ?
- will Stalin try and conquest all of western europe ?
- can France and Great Britain stop him without America ?
- will France and Great Britain need a revamped German army (nazi or de-nazified ?) to try and help stopping the Soviet onslaught ?
 
Damn French always spoiling France for the French.
I thought that was the Parisians? Even the other French don't like them.


The Battle of France didn't end in unconditional surrender. The French government signed an armistice at Compiègne. An unconditional surrender would have presumably meant no free zone in the south and the surrender of the French Navy.
Whilst not technically an unconditional surrender it was pretty much that in all but name when looked at in terms of the resulting conditions.


Inception.
Dakar.
 
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