Fractured Kingdom - A British Civil War

Freizeit

Banned
How could the United Kingdom collapse into civil war by 1990? I'm planning to write a timeline, but I thought I'd ask you guys for a point of departure - many hands make light work! :eek:

My initial idea was an assassinated Thatcher followed by rigged elections and nationalist fever, but that's probably unlikely.
 
Perhaps it might be possible for the POD to be in the Cold War, thus linking the collapse of the Berlin Wall and the Soviet Union with the fall of the UK? Or perhaps even in WWII: like, a failed D-Day; the Red Army crosses the rhine; eventually leading to the fall of western Europe, including the UK.

But I think you want it to be focussed on the UK, and that you want the POD to be shortly before 1990, right? If so, I'm not sure if I can help you. ;)
 

Freizeit

Banned
I'd like a point of departure any time between 1850-1990, with the civil war erupting shortly after the beginning of the decade - and I don't really care if Europe collapses as well. In fact, it would help, as there'd be little to no NATO peacekeeping apart from maybe America.
 
If you butterfly away the First World War the issue of Irish Home Rule could lead to the Civil War in that part of the Kingdom. Other than that I can't really think of a PoD post '45 that is plausible unless you believe that the coup plot against Wilson in the '70s was real and not a figment of his imagination.

If Maggie were to be assassinated then all that would happen would be that the Tories would appoint a new leader and whoever that was would become the new PM. No need for new elections.
 
You could have a POD of 1970 following the discovery of North Sea Oil.
The Scots demand to see some of the money spent on them, Edward Heath and the British government tell them to get stuffed, (diplomatically of course).
This leads to a rise to promenance of the Scottish Nationalist Party, and occupying joint second place with Labour, the Scottish Socialist Party. In 1979, the Conservative party do not field any candidates in Scotland, knowing that they will not be elected.
Keep the rest of history as it is until 1997.
1997, despite being the least popular government in modern history, the Conservative party under John Major win the general election. Rumours of gerrymandering, missing vites and later, outright fraud cause a massive outcry from the press. Even the Sun, normally a vocal supporter of the Conservative party passes concerns that things may not have been as they should have been.

The SNP comissions a poll across Scotland asking "Should Scotland become independant of Westminster?"
The result comes back with an unprecedented 68% YES vote. The SNP begin a campaign demanding a Referendum on Scottish independance. Westminster again refuses.
In 1998, following a leaked report from the Independant Electoral comission alledging widespread vote fraud, the LSE suffers a 18% crash in value. Britian plunges into economic meltdown.
Alex Salmond again demands a referendum, this time when denied, following a back room deal with the other Scots parties, (including the nominally unionist Labour and Liberal Democrat parties), Alex Salmond makes the Holyrood speah setting out a unilateral declaration of Scots independance under the Crown. At the heart of it, a simple line, "and with this step, we will not only forge a new future for Scotland with the fruits of our labours, but with the fruits that Scotland has been blessed with, so long plundered by our former masters in Westminster".
And thus, the first Salvo of the Scottish Oil Wars, (as opposed to the 3 day "Fish War" of 1999), was fired.

Following the unsuccessful attempt to bring Scotland back into the fold, Yorkshire, (Yorkshire, North Yorkshire, South Yorkshire and West Yorkshire combined), declare their independance with the assistance of the catterick Garrison. Northumberland and Lancashire petition to join and the York & Northern Commonwealth comes into existance. Northumberland and Durham, cut off from the rest of England become defacto but independant member of Y&NC shortly afterwards. Again. although they have declared themselves independant of Westminster, they have declared themselves Independant under the Crown, retaining King Charles II as their King as had Scotland before them.

My first attempt at a Map
new UK.JPG

By the way, Cornwall also declared independance, but seeing as they don't interfere with the Royal Navy bases there and also accept the cron, no one is too fussed.

new UK.JPG
 
The trouble with creating a Civil War (rather than just lots of rioting) is you need two (or more) distinct sides. Those don't just come out of nowhere. The obvious ones, as above, are the Scots/English/Welsh, but even so I don't see the common Englishman in the late 20th century joining up to preserve the UK in the name of honour. Similarly, I don't see the Scots doing something really unpleasant like somehow dirty-bombing London, which is what you'd need to do to make the Englishmen fight back with vigour to punish them and keep them under their heel.

I think we'd need to think big to create two factions, therefore, that would really go at it in a civil war. The obvious one, given the pre-1990 backdrop, is a sort of Cold War-goes-differently scenario with the left and right eventually going at one another with sharp sticks/tanks. Maybe no Labour victory in 1945, despite what everyone expects? Labour is hugely disappointed and surges to the left. Perhaps, unlike OTL when it had to oppose the USSR as it was the government while the Cold War started, it could grow closer to them and start endorsing their actions, which would lead to clampdowns on it by increasingly reactionary Tory governments and the military, resulting in paramilitary unrest in the 1970s in most major cities and Derek Hatton climbing up in the (now completely different to OTL, forget Butskellism and Wilson, think Militant with a vengeance) Labour party in 1980s until he, as leader after a clearly rigged election, makes a speech declaring war on the right wing parasites of the Powell-Thatcherite reactionary Conservative militaristic scum?

...or something.
 
I read a story once (I don't know the title, but it was published by Octopus and dealt with escapes), in which a right-wing group known as the Patriotic Front took over the government, leading to a counterattack by an Army general.
 
You might always have that much rumored MI5 coup in the seventies materialise in an attempt to oust Labour and install Mountbatten or some other conservative.

It fails, of course, but not before several regiments have declared for the coup.



Unlikely, to say the least, but could be interesting.
 

Teleology

Banned
Anyway you could get the Midlands/Northumbria/whatever joining Scotland/Wales/Cornwall in rejecting the dominance of the England (Southeast Britain, that is) region?

Also, maybe there isn't a coup against Wilson but he resigns under what is obviously duress and widely considered to be MI-5 coercion, leading to greater tensions between the Parliament and other elements of H.M.'s Gov and more instability, with radical shifts between far-right Tories and far-left Labourites punctuated by general strikes and MI-5 thuggery; ultimately leading to a civil war?
 
If you butterfly away the First World War the issue of Irish Home Rule could lead to the Civil War in that part of the Kingdom.

Something broadly similar happened eventually anyway.

Also, how about a POD where the miner's strike is unresolved, and Maggie declares martial law?
 
I really don't see a civil war happening in post war Britain, not without a radical and far fetched POD. I don't think British people are generally like that, we're not the revolutionary type save for a few raving nationalists up here in Scotland who endlessly watch Braveheart in lieu of porn.

I personally think that your best chance for a civil war would be as others have suggested a 1970's coup against the government. However, I doubt even that would lead to civil war. Instead a short civil disturbance might occur with it going one way to another. It would completely destroy Britain as a political force and leave the economy in an even worse state. Think post war Greece, only worse.

Russell
 
Certainly the Troubles would get even worse in the aftermath of a coup; it would do a lot to destroy the authority of the British military.



Hmm. Depending on the outcome, it might eventually drive the UK into a more pro-European stance out of economic necessity.
 
I started to write up some ideas for this a few months ago. It all hinges around 1978-79.
Basically Callaghan wins a October 1978 General Election. Mountbatten is not killed by the IRA. In the US President Carter wins a narrow re-election against Reagan.In 1980 Callaghan retires, replaced by Foot. Foot agrees a pact with the Soviets to get rid of all uk nuclear weapons,and withdraw from NATO. In an agreement for the Soviets pledge never to invade Western Europe, but it is all part of plan. The Soviets do invade and without British forces in NATO, sweep through Western Europe, Foot releases he has been conned. He resigns, with Soviet forces heading for France, The Queen is urged to appoint Lord Mountbatten Acting Prime-minister, with support of the Conservatives etc. Then the hard left lead by Arthur Scragill march against this new Government, and call for a Socialist Soviet republic of Great Britain. Civil war breaks out....
 

world

Banned
I started to write up some ideas for this a few months ago. It all hinges around 1978-79.
Basically Callaghan wins a October 1978 General Election. Mountbatten is not killed by the IRA. In the US President Carter wins a narrow re-election against Reagan.In 1980 Callaghan retires, replaced by Foot. Foot agrees a pact with the Soviets to get rid of all uk nuclear weapons,and withdraw from NATO. In an agreement for the Soviets pledge never to invade Western Europe, but it is all part of plan. The Soviets do invade and without British forces in NATO, sweep through Western Europe, Foot releases he has been conned. He resigns, with Soviet forces heading for France, The Queen is urged to appoint Lord Mountbatten Acting Prime-minister, with support of the Conservatives etc. Then the hard left lead by Arthur Scragill march against this new Government, and call for a Socialist Soviet republic of Great Britain. Civil war breaks out....

I would leave out the Soviet invasion bit.
A Foot government nationalising half the economy, massive over spending, inflation in treble figures, huge tax rises, goods shortages etc.
The invasion of the Falklands might be the final straw when the military is forced to act.
If this happens we could see riots in Scotland, Wales, N Ireland and Industrial and urban areas of England turn into Socialist terrorism and maybe eventually armed insurrection to a limited extent.
 
I would leave out the Soviet invasion bit.
A Foot government nationalising half the economy, massive over spending, inflation in treble figures, huge tax rises, goods shortages etc.
The invasion of the Falklands might be the final straw when the military is forced to act.
If this happens we could see riots in Scotland, Wales, N Ireland and Industrial and urban areas of England turn into Socialist terrorism and maybe eventually armed insurrection to a limited extent.

The Soviets don't invade the UK, only Western Europe because NATO has been weakned Although they have been supplying Scargill with weapons support etc.
I also had the IRA backing them as well, in agreement for a United Ireland.
 
Re: IRA involvement - have the original IRA (the Marxist one that became the INLA) maintain its influence through butterflies and make the Troubles a war of socialist liberation.
 

world

Banned
The Soviets don't invade the UK, only Western Europe because NATO has been weakned Although they have been supplying Scargill with weapons support etc.
I also had the IRA backing them as well, in agreement for a United Ireland.

I know they dont invade the UK I read what you wrote.
Im saying leave the Soviet invasion of Western Europe out.
France is a nuclear power you know.
 
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