The problem with Britian joining in a alliance with Germany is that it means abondoning Franceto join one of their rivals, somthing that they would not do unless forced. I would think that Britian would merely step back from the situation and not get involved in the Crimean(SP?) War for fear of lossing France as an allie.
Founding the German Empire.......in 1815
- Thread starter Beck Reilly
- Start date
Interesting, LDoc. I guess Britain would act as a mediator, playing the two powers off of each other.
What about the 1848 Revolutions? I don't know too much about them, but would a unified Germany change things in that regard?
Another thing that could change: Imperialism. The race for colonies in Africa could start alot earlier, or with a Germany much more ready and willing to take on the UK and France. Also, a unified Germany this early may be ready for an arms race with the UK or France, not unlike the one IOTL.
What about the 1848 Revolutions? I don't know too much about them, but would a unified Germany change things in that regard?
Another thing that could change: Imperialism. The race for colonies in Africa could start alot earlier, or with a Germany much more ready and willing to take on the UK and France. Also, a unified Germany this early may be ready for an arms race with the UK or France, not unlike the one IOTL.
Xen
Banned
Walter_Kaufmann said:
Fourth actually
they also tried to get help from Spain. Though it is a different Germany, OTL Prussia was much more sympathetic to the Union cause. It was part of the east-west division in giving their support to who in that war. Could Germany join the Union in the war against slavery? A way to keep France from gaining an ally in the America's and a slap in Napolean's face?It would also be intresting to see Germany aligning with Russia in the Crimean War, though that is not your intention. Germany gains influence over Hungary, and the Balkans, perhaps annexing Slovenia, while Russia takes Constantinople. Now Britain and France have two new rivals in the Mediterranean.
In the race for colonies I see the UK gaining the most valuable provinces in most places with Germany and france in a bitter race for 2nd. I could see Portugal and the Netherlands lossing all their colonies to France and Germany with China being even more divided between the "big three". But by the late 1800s Germanies navy will just be to big for a France to manage. But I don't see UK getting involved in the French-German feud unless their forced to, instead I see them trying to play German and France off each other so that neither can threaten their interest. The wild card is what happens when the USA explodes on the scene with the take over of spanish colonies, the completion of the panama canal, and the construction of the great white fleet.
I think I'm going to start making a formal timeline. What would you expect to see happen in the first thirty years of the German Empire (1818 - 1848)?
I think I have more than enough to write about after 1848 but I can't think of much to say in those three decades.
I think I have more than enough to write about after 1848 but I can't think of much to say in those three decades.
Okay. The first two years are rather simple. I'm not sure how much detail I want to go into but here's the brief outline of the first two years:
1815 – 1816: In February, while the Congress of Vienna is in recess due to Napoleon’s escape from Elba, the Austrian minister of state who acted as president of the Congress, dies in a freak horse-riding accident. When Congress reconvenes four months later, several figures step forward, advocating the unification of the many German states. Among the leading advocates are Prince Karl August von Hardenberg, Baron Heinrich von Stein, and Friedrich Wilhelm III of Prussia, as well as Alexander I of Russia. After weeks of arguments and deal-making, the Prussians get their way. The German states of Prussia, Bavaria, Hannover, Mecklenberg, Nassau, Werten, Holstein, and Saxony merge to form the German Empire. As a ‘reward’ for the service in the Napoleonic Wars, the German Empire is granted the French provinces of Alsace-Lorraine. Friedrich Wilhelm III becomes the German Emporer (or Kaiser).
How much detail would you suggest going into? Off the top of your head can you think of any timelines I can look at which have a good format?
1815 – 1816: In February, while the Congress of Vienna is in recess due to Napoleon’s escape from Elba, the Austrian minister of state who acted as president of the Congress, dies in a freak horse-riding accident. When Congress reconvenes four months later, several figures step forward, advocating the unification of the many German states. Among the leading advocates are Prince Karl August von Hardenberg, Baron Heinrich von Stein, and Friedrich Wilhelm III of Prussia, as well as Alexander I of Russia. After weeks of arguments and deal-making, the Prussians get their way. The German states of Prussia, Bavaria, Hannover, Mecklenberg, Nassau, Werten, Holstein, and Saxony merge to form the German Empire. As a ‘reward’ for the service in the Napoleonic Wars, the German Empire is granted the French provinces of Alsace-Lorraine. Friedrich Wilhelm III becomes the German Emporer (or Kaiser).
How much detail would you suggest going into? Off the top of your head can you think of any timelines I can look at which have a good format?
Walter_Kaufmann said:
I think a year by year, or maybe a decade by decade account, would be best for this TL. Try being concise, but any changes of course should be able to be explained from what you've typed so far. You'll do find; after all, aren't you experienced in this?
As for TLs, I guess you could use alternatehistory.com's AH Guide to look at other examples.
Yeah, Nixon, I've done several timelines before, but they're all about American history, which I can blab on about for hours.
I don't know quite as much about European history and, therefore, don't have as much to write about. I think I'm probably better off with a decade-by-decade account, rather than a year-by-year timeline.
By the way, I recently found a website with major world events from this period (and others): here
I don't know quite as much about European history and, therefore, don't have as much to write about. I think I'm probably better off with a decade-by-decade account, rather than a year-by-year timeline.
By the way, I recently found a website with major world events from this period (and others): here
Last edited:
Walter_Kaufmann said:
Try this website for starters:
http://europeanhistory.about.com/
BTW, I know how you feel. I tried doing one TL a few months ago involving America annexing Mexico after the Mexican War, and it proved to be alot harder than I anticipated. It was fun doing the research, though.
Okay, thank you LDoc and Nixon. Any information you can provide will be greatly appreciated.
And, by the way, if anyone else has anything that they'd like to add or comment on, feel free to jump in. I'd love to have as much advice and help as possible.
Here's the preliminary first part. Any changes, corrections, additions, or other device is greatly appreciated.
Founding the German Empire: Part One
1815 – 1820: Escaping from Elba in March, Napoleon soon reaches France and marches on Paris. When the King Louis XVII sends troops to stop him, Napoleon wins over those same troops. Once in Paris, he promulgates a new and more democratic constitution. Veterans of his old campaigns flock to his side. Napoleon asks the allies for peace but they reject his offer, instead declaring his government illegal. He decides to strike first. Napoleon goes campaigning through Belgium, culminating in the Battle of Waterloo on June 18, 1815. Napoleon is defeated by British forces under Wellington and Prussian forces under Blücher. In Paris, crowds begged him to fight on, but the politicians withdrew their support. Napoleon fled to Rochefort, where he surrendered to the captain of the British battleship, Bellerophon. He was then exiled to Saint Helena, a remote island in the southern Atlantic Ocean.
In Vienna, the Congress tasked with ending the Napoleonic Wars and reconciling European differences is put in recess. It is agreed that when Napoleon is defeated once and for all, the Congress will reconvene. Meanwhile, Prince Klemens von Metternich, the Austrian Minister of State who acted as president of the Congress, dies in a freak horse-riding accident. When the Congress of Vienna reconvenes, several key delegates revoice their opinions on the future of the German states. Many of these delegates, including Prince Karl August von Hardenberg, Baron Heinrich von Stein, and Friedrich Wilhelm III of Prussia, as well as Alexander I of Russia advocate, once again, the unification of the German states. Without the main voice of opposition, that of Metternich, the Congress narrowily allows the unification of the many German states. As a sign of gratitude for the services rendered by Prussian soldiers in the Napoleonic Wars, the German nation is to be granted the French territory of Alsace-Lorraine.
By the end of the year, the German states are already convening in Berlin, which is to be the capital of the nation, to discuss the terms of unification. Early the next year, the German states of Prussia, Bavaria, Hannover, Mecklenberg, Nassau, Werten, Holstein, Saxony, and others, merge to form the German Empire. Aided by Chancellor von Hardenberg, Friedrich Wilhelm III becomes the Emporer of Germany, known as the Kaiser.
The Napoleonic Wars are finally brought to a close with the last colonies of the conquered nations being returned to their rightful owners (i.e. the East Indies are returned to Dutch possession) in 1816. In 1818, as the US-Canadian border is being agreed upon, the final allied troops leave France, returning home for the first time in at least three years. Meanwhile, the Ottoman Turks begin to give limited autonomy to their Serbian territories.
In South America, Brazil becomes a separate kingdom, equal to Portugal and ruled by a Portuguese monarch in Rio de Jainero. In 1820, a liberal revolution in Portugal brings the king back from Brazil, leaving his son Pedro as regent. On the rest of the continent, the series of wars for Latin American Independence rage. Revolution spreads from nation to nation as Spain’s tentative hold on their American possessions finally slips. Buenos Aires and nearby provinces declare their independence from Spain. Independence leader José de San Martín defeats royalist forces on February 12, 1817, in the Battle of Chacabuco near Santiago, Chile. Chile declares its independence on February 12, 1818. General Simón Bolívar defeats royalist forces in the Battle of Boyacá on August 7, 1819; the Republic of Colombia (also known as Gran Colombia) is proclaimed on December 17, consisting of Colombia, Venezuela, and Ecuador.
With industry just beginning to develop under the guidance of Chancellor von Hardenberg, the English government decrees that it will no longer allow children under the age of nine to work in factories. Also, at this time, British dominance over the Indian subcontinent is assured while a small trading post, named Singapore, is established in southeast Asia by the British East India Company. In the German Empire, Austrian politicians and financiers constantly try to obstruct the development of industry in the nation. In the end, however, the efforts of the Austrians are not enough, as the German Empire industrializes rapidly, becoming second only to Great Britain by 1821.
In the Americas, Spain sells off another of its former colonies. This time, Florida is sold to the United States for a relatively small sum. The United States passes the Missouri Compromise the next year, allowing Missouri and Maine into the Union. Simon Bolivar becomes the President of the Republic of Columbia in 1819 while American interests found Liberia, designed for the repatriatation of former slaves to the African continent.
Founding the German Empire: Part One
1815 – 1820: Escaping from Elba in March, Napoleon soon reaches France and marches on Paris. When the King Louis XVII sends troops to stop him, Napoleon wins over those same troops. Once in Paris, he promulgates a new and more democratic constitution. Veterans of his old campaigns flock to his side. Napoleon asks the allies for peace but they reject his offer, instead declaring his government illegal. He decides to strike first. Napoleon goes campaigning through Belgium, culminating in the Battle of Waterloo on June 18, 1815. Napoleon is defeated by British forces under Wellington and Prussian forces under Blücher. In Paris, crowds begged him to fight on, but the politicians withdrew their support. Napoleon fled to Rochefort, where he surrendered to the captain of the British battleship, Bellerophon. He was then exiled to Saint Helena, a remote island in the southern Atlantic Ocean.
In Vienna, the Congress tasked with ending the Napoleonic Wars and reconciling European differences is put in recess. It is agreed that when Napoleon is defeated once and for all, the Congress will reconvene. Meanwhile, Prince Klemens von Metternich, the Austrian Minister of State who acted as president of the Congress, dies in a freak horse-riding accident. When the Congress of Vienna reconvenes, several key delegates revoice their opinions on the future of the German states. Many of these delegates, including Prince Karl August von Hardenberg, Baron Heinrich von Stein, and Friedrich Wilhelm III of Prussia, as well as Alexander I of Russia advocate, once again, the unification of the German states. Without the main voice of opposition, that of Metternich, the Congress narrowily allows the unification of the many German states. As a sign of gratitude for the services rendered by Prussian soldiers in the Napoleonic Wars, the German nation is to be granted the French territory of Alsace-Lorraine.
By the end of the year, the German states are already convening in Berlin, which is to be the capital of the nation, to discuss the terms of unification. Early the next year, the German states of Prussia, Bavaria, Hannover, Mecklenberg, Nassau, Werten, Holstein, Saxony, and others, merge to form the German Empire. Aided by Chancellor von Hardenberg, Friedrich Wilhelm III becomes the Emporer of Germany, known as the Kaiser.
The Napoleonic Wars are finally brought to a close with the last colonies of the conquered nations being returned to their rightful owners (i.e. the East Indies are returned to Dutch possession) in 1816. In 1818, as the US-Canadian border is being agreed upon, the final allied troops leave France, returning home for the first time in at least three years. Meanwhile, the Ottoman Turks begin to give limited autonomy to their Serbian territories.
In South America, Brazil becomes a separate kingdom, equal to Portugal and ruled by a Portuguese monarch in Rio de Jainero. In 1820, a liberal revolution in Portugal brings the king back from Brazil, leaving his son Pedro as regent. On the rest of the continent, the series of wars for Latin American Independence rage. Revolution spreads from nation to nation as Spain’s tentative hold on their American possessions finally slips. Buenos Aires and nearby provinces declare their independence from Spain. Independence leader José de San Martín defeats royalist forces on February 12, 1817, in the Battle of Chacabuco near Santiago, Chile. Chile declares its independence on February 12, 1818. General Simón Bolívar defeats royalist forces in the Battle of Boyacá on August 7, 1819; the Republic of Colombia (also known as Gran Colombia) is proclaimed on December 17, consisting of Colombia, Venezuela, and Ecuador.
With industry just beginning to develop under the guidance of Chancellor von Hardenberg, the English government decrees that it will no longer allow children under the age of nine to work in factories. Also, at this time, British dominance over the Indian subcontinent is assured while a small trading post, named Singapore, is established in southeast Asia by the British East India Company. In the German Empire, Austrian politicians and financiers constantly try to obstruct the development of industry in the nation. In the end, however, the efforts of the Austrians are not enough, as the German Empire industrializes rapidly, becoming second only to Great Britain by 1821.
In the Americas, Spain sells off another of its former colonies. This time, Florida is sold to the United States for a relatively small sum. The United States passes the Missouri Compromise the next year, allowing Missouri and Maine into the Union. Simon Bolivar becomes the President of the Republic of Columbia in 1819 while American interests found Liberia, designed for the repatriatation of former slaves to the African continent.
hmm i think it needs more things on germany is this period. Such as Austria trying to lobby catholic Bavaria to leave Germany and how centralised a German nation should be. I could diffenetly see a senate of representatives from the different states to at least "advice" the Kaiser maybe have a more useful role such as control inter-state trade and relations or even financies. Maybe Bavaria tries to leave Germany and after the reconquest of Bavaria the Kaiser tries to stop the threat of other seccestionist movements by setting up a senate.
Revised (Again) - Part One
No Time for Gloom – Founding the German Empire
1815: Napoleon Bonaparte escapes from Elba in March, returning to France by May. The Congress of Vienna goes into recess until Napoleon is returned to exile, during which time, Prince Klemens von Metternich, the Austrian Minister of State who acted as president of the Congress, is killed in a freak horse-riding accident. When Congress reconvenes after Napoleon’s defeat at Waterloo, several delegates, namely Prince Karl von Hardenberg of Prussia and Czar Alexander I, begin agitating for German unification once again.
Without the opposition of Metternich, the Congress votes narrowly to allow the unification, and, despite the best efforts of French diplomat Charles Talleyrand, the German Empire is granted the French province of Alsace-Lorraine. The new Empire is formed out of the merger of many smaller German states, including the dominant state, Prussia. Friedrich Wilhelm III, King of Prussia, becomes the German Emporer, called the Kaiser. Prince Karl von Hardenberg, the delegate to the Congress of Vienna, becomes the Chancellor.
1817: The Austrian opposition to the formation of the German Empire culminates in the Bavarian Rebellion. For the two years since the inception of the German Empire, as the Kaiser and Chancellor consolidated the power of the throne, the Catholic Austrian Empire had been trying to convince the Catholic German state of Bavaria to leave the German Empire. Hoping that it would weaken Germany and begin a chain reaction in the other Catholic states, the Austrians finally succeeded in convincing the state to secede from the Empire.
The ‘Bavarian Rebellion,’ however, did more to insure the future of the German Empire than any of the Kaiser’s power consolidation. Instead of the intended chain reaction of Catholic secessions, the neighboring states swiftly sent troops into Bavaria, where they arrested, killed, and defeated any and all rebels, including a good number of Austrian agitators. Following the rebellion, the Kaiser created the Imperial Council, composed of representatives from all the German states, which could, nominally, advise the Kaiser and Chancellor on future actions. Even recently returned Bavaria is allowed to send a representative, as a sign of good will towards the Bavarian people.
The German Empire, however, did not display the same good will and friendship towards their Austrian neighbors. To prevent further Austrian intervention, the German Empire threatened the Austrian Empire with war if further ‘meddling in German affairs’ continues. Although the display is a bluff, and the German Empire does not, at the moment, have the offensive military capability which they threaten to use. The Austrians, however, do not call the German bluff and, instead, back away, promising to allow the German Empire to exist in peace, for the time being anyway.
No Time for Gloom – Founding the German Empire
1815: Napoleon Bonaparte escapes from Elba in March, returning to France by May. The Congress of Vienna goes into recess until Napoleon is returned to exile, during which time, Prince Klemens von Metternich, the Austrian Minister of State who acted as president of the Congress, is killed in a freak horse-riding accident. When Congress reconvenes after Napoleon’s defeat at Waterloo, several delegates, namely Prince Karl von Hardenberg of Prussia and Czar Alexander I, begin agitating for German unification once again.
Without the opposition of Metternich, the Congress votes narrowly to allow the unification, and, despite the best efforts of French diplomat Charles Talleyrand, the German Empire is granted the French province of Alsace-Lorraine. The new Empire is formed out of the merger of many smaller German states, including the dominant state, Prussia. Friedrich Wilhelm III, King of Prussia, becomes the German Emporer, called the Kaiser. Prince Karl von Hardenberg, the delegate to the Congress of Vienna, becomes the Chancellor.
1817: The Austrian opposition to the formation of the German Empire culminates in the Bavarian Rebellion. For the two years since the inception of the German Empire, as the Kaiser and Chancellor consolidated the power of the throne, the Catholic Austrian Empire had been trying to convince the Catholic German state of Bavaria to leave the German Empire. Hoping that it would weaken Germany and begin a chain reaction in the other Catholic states, the Austrians finally succeeded in convincing the state to secede from the Empire.
The ‘Bavarian Rebellion,’ however, did more to insure the future of the German Empire than any of the Kaiser’s power consolidation. Instead of the intended chain reaction of Catholic secessions, the neighboring states swiftly sent troops into Bavaria, where they arrested, killed, and defeated any and all rebels, including a good number of Austrian agitators. Following the rebellion, the Kaiser created the Imperial Council, composed of representatives from all the German states, which could, nominally, advise the Kaiser and Chancellor on future actions. Even recently returned Bavaria is allowed to send a representative, as a sign of good will towards the Bavarian people.
The German Empire, however, did not display the same good will and friendship towards their Austrian neighbors. To prevent further Austrian intervention, the German Empire threatened the Austrian Empire with war if further ‘meddling in German affairs’ continues. Although the display is a bluff, and the German Empire does not, at the moment, have the offensive military capability which they threaten to use. The Austrians, however, do not call the German bluff and, instead, back away, promising to allow the German Empire to exist in peace, for the time being anyway.
Royal Genealogy
I've tried to create an alternate list of monarchs for Europe's four Empires. Key word: Alternate. I wanted to change the monarchies up comewhat. Could anyone tell me if they're the least bit plausible?
No Time for Gloom – Founding the German Empire
Austrian Empire
Francis I 1804 - 1835
Ferdinand I 1835 - 1848
Franz Joseph I 1848 - 1916
Rudolph I 1916 - 1933
Franz Ferdinand I 1933 - 1938
Ferdinand II 1938 - 1957
Franz Joseph II 1957 - 1977
Charles I 1977 -
Heir Apparent: Rudolph II
British Empire
George III 1760 - 1820
George IV 1820 - 1830
William IV 1830 - 1837
Ernest Augustus I 1837 - 1851
George V 1851 - 1878
Ernest Augustus II 1878 - 1923
Marie I 1923 - 1948
Frederick I 1948 - 1963
Margaret I 1963 -
Heir Apparent: Nicholas I
Anglo-German monarch line (I think Hannoverian ; starts with Ernest I) thrown out of German Empire before Victoria ascends.
German Empire
Friedrich Wilhelm III 1797 - 1840
Friedrich Wilhelm IV 1840 - 1861
Wilhelm I 1861 - 1888
Friedrich III 1888 - 1906
Wilhelm II 1906 - 1931
Wilhelm III 1931 - 1951
Victor I 1951 - 1994
Friedrich IV 1994 -
Heir Apparent: Friedrich V
Victor's real name = Louis Ferdinand
Russian Empire
Alexander I 1801 - 1825
Nicholas I 1825 - 1855
Alexander II 1855 - 1901
Vladimir I 1901 - 1909
Cyril I 1909 - 1938
Mary I 1938 - 1951
Emich I 1951 -
Heir Apparent: Andrew I
Research for this done with Royal Genealogy
I've tried to create an alternate list of monarchs for Europe's four Empires. Key word: Alternate. I wanted to change the monarchies up comewhat. Could anyone tell me if they're the least bit plausible?
No Time for Gloom – Founding the German Empire
Austrian Empire
Francis I 1804 - 1835
Ferdinand I 1835 - 1848
Franz Joseph I 1848 - 1916
Rudolph I 1916 - 1933
Franz Ferdinand I 1933 - 1938
Ferdinand II 1938 - 1957
Franz Joseph II 1957 - 1977
Charles I 1977 -
Heir Apparent: Rudolph II
British Empire
George III 1760 - 1820
George IV 1820 - 1830
William IV 1830 - 1837
Ernest Augustus I 1837 - 1851
George V 1851 - 1878
Ernest Augustus II 1878 - 1923
Marie I 1923 - 1948
Frederick I 1948 - 1963
Margaret I 1963 -
Heir Apparent: Nicholas I
Anglo-German monarch line (I think Hannoverian ; starts with Ernest I) thrown out of German Empire before Victoria ascends.
German Empire
Friedrich Wilhelm III 1797 - 1840
Friedrich Wilhelm IV 1840 - 1861
Wilhelm I 1861 - 1888
Friedrich III 1888 - 1906
Wilhelm II 1906 - 1931
Wilhelm III 1931 - 1951
Victor I 1951 - 1994
Friedrich IV 1994 -
Heir Apparent: Friedrich V
Victor's real name = Louis Ferdinand
Russian Empire
Alexander I 1801 - 1825
Nicholas I 1825 - 1855
Alexander II 1855 - 1901
Vladimir I 1901 - 1909
Cyril I 1909 - 1938
Mary I 1938 - 1951
Emich I 1951 -
Heir Apparent: Andrew I
Research for this done with Royal Genealogy
the German empire would compete with Sweden, Russia & GB for influence in the Baltics . eitheir taking then over, or the Baltic states may be able to play the Four off , allowing the Baltics to maintain some kind of Independence. Also a Unified Germany would have a great deal to say about Poland.