Forth Venezia! Timeline Help

I will be making a timeline in which Venice expands and becomes the military force along the coast of the Balkans and from this, the merchant republic becomes stronger and exists as a modern Italian state up to this day.

Along the wya I plan on doing sveral other small nation wanks to assist the story along, Nations that wouldn't and shouldn't by all rights succeed in becoming stronger but in Forth Venezia I plan on doing this.

I understand that there have been other Ven ice timelines but I intend on making mine different but with Venice there will always be the same things popping up.

So any help on this would be great, my POD is yet to be confirmed but any help will be welcome.
 
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Venice will expand across the balkans and along the adriatic coast eventually carving a nice little grip over the ports of the adriatic whilst inland they weill expand and consume croatia, parts of bosnia, montenegro & northern albania & assimilate Ragusa into the mix but giving them autonomy.

To do this I plan on having a powerful Serbian kingdom take hold and also a puppet Byzantine state tha takes back constntinople from the turks who are more interested in asia than europe and trying to create a pan turkic empire.
 
Anyway to make it NOT asb?

and my benezia wouldnt have as much of that land in the north of the balkans
something more like that. possibly with either a resurgent byzantine state controlling constantinople or even a mega serbia taking the city.

Wu6Uu.png
 
Depends on the PoD I guess. A lot of Anatolian farmland reverted to pasture after Manzikert with the Turkish Migrations. Thus the Ottomans, positioned in the west, found it far more advantageous to set up their state in the Balkans and then expand east right away.

Maybe if you butterfly away the Turkish migration of pastoral peoples and make them farmers already, or have a rival blocking the way west you could get a Turkish drive east. Maybe you'd end up with an Ak Konyunlu type state, that rules east-central Anatolia too. You have to keep in mind which land was valuable when and for what.
 
what if a Byzantine remnant state was positioned in the west of Anatolia and basically flipping what turks did and making the byzantines do the same, attempting to expand east again but with limited results but enough to keep the balkans european enough.

I am trying to think of a suitable POD form which that mapp I displayed can be some form of reality.

All I know is, Venice relies on Serbia to help her achieve her dominance over the adriatic Balkan states and in return Serbia is paid handsomley and her reward seems unending
 
Tzar of Constantinople

I think your best bet would be a stronger Bulgaria/Romania, that manages to hold off the Ottomans in the 1350 - 1450 period.
They could take Constantinople/Thrace while the Ottomans take the rest of Greece/SBalkans. Serbia holds the Middle Adriatic and fights for the NBlakans against Venice.

An alliance between Venice & Bulgaria, Serbia goes down, The Balkans are split between Ottomans South, Venice West, Bulgaria East.

Venice expands in Italy, Bulgaria takes the Ukraine, Ottomans look East/South.
 
With regards to Italy, the eastern shorees would be carved up between Sicily Naples & Venice.

A stronger Bulgaria? Hmm never thought about those pesky critters.
What i did have in mind was for Serbia to basically become the next 'Roman' nation vying for that title with the Bulgarians who may control constantinople?
I'd like to keep the Byzantines if only as a condensed form of what they once were, sticking to the Greek heartlands.

Hope this map shows the kind of divisons I want to be happening

KLD0M.png
 
Hmmm, make the Byzzies a tribe of alt-Turks and you might have something there. Depending on the PoD, it's unlikely a Byzantine remnant will survive. Maybe Morea I guess.
 
It wouldnt be a true Byzantine empire as such, a heavy dose of Slavic culture mixed with Turkish influence would see it become a Greek state living off past glories.

They wouldnt see themselves as Roman anymore, because their power base being Greek heratlands theyd see themselves as becoming more Grecian and that would influence their future greatly eventually rejecting turk influences.

Possibly having the Ottomans spare them from being assimilated or wiped out by themselves or the Serbians and Bulgarians.

Nobody wants a war with the Turks at this point in time.
 
I have thought of certain nations I plan on having within europe and so far they are, Byzantine Greece, Venice, Slovenia, Serbia, Bulgaria, Wallachia, Hungary, Austria.

Also I am trying to find a suitable POD for this without falling into the ASB trap.

A POD that allows Europe to be muxh more free of the Ottomans as they do not bother crossing past Constantinople and stick to Anatolia & asia minor but keeping them a constant threat and a power to be reckoned with.

Also an Orthodox Patriarch who styles himself on the Catholic Pope and begins to give Orthodoxy a great shunt up the backside.

So anyone out there able to help? Any websites will help, Im using wikipedia as it is, so anyone with knowledge of the 15th century and especially the area of Italy & the balkans would be great.

I plan on making this timeline at least reach World war 1
 
Hmm, how about something around Manuel-Conrad III's time. I guess they were pretty friendly? Maybe that's too early. Here's the deal though, the Ottomans liked to choose sultans who were hyper-competent in the early years when they were looked on a minor issue for the Byzzies. The best way is to prevent the Ottomans appearing at all. It was the earthquake at Gallipoli which allowed Orhan to start entering Europe when he did and by the time of Bayezid it is probably already too late. If you can get a successful annihilation battle against Orhan (probably some sort of anti-Turkish crusade) combined with a much more successful Karaman, it might be possible to keep the Ottomans as one of many states in the Balkans. I don't think it's possible to have a Greek state that sees itself as Greek at this time. That I don't see it, doesn't mean it's not there but you'll have to ask someone else.

Hot damn, thats one awesome looking map! Is there a tl to go with it somewhere?
Check my sig: The Raptor of Spain. I am revising and reposting the early parts (791-940s) over at CF.net. Eventually it'll just be copy and paste but there are some important changes that makes the whole thing flow better. The "live" TL will return at AH.com in early 2010 but I will randomly be posting "extras" to flesh out the world. The latest update, Extra #3, has lots of pretty maps if that's your thing.
 
The Greeks still didnt see themselves as Greek even in during the 15th century as they still clung onto the belief that they WERE Rome.

What if a resurgence amongst the Balkans nations against the Turkish advances into Europe itself? A combined Balkan & Venetian alliance to take back and not necessarily reform the Byzantines but merely have a state exist just to show that they mean business.

That POD may well work, but if not the Turks in that region as the dominant force then who? Im assuming that a Bulgarian contingent pushing into Anatolia say after a succesful campaign against the Ottomans or whomever is in control of Thrace at that time is ASB even with a weakened Turk state.

Also hoping to have Italy partitioned 3 ways by Sicily Naples, Milan & Venice but with the Papacy given rule over Rome entirely so they basically just have that city to govern and nothing more and nothing less.
 
The problem with the premise above is that expanding from the Dalmatian coast into the mountainous interior is logistically rather difficult, even more so in the Middle Ages. Furthermore, why would Venice, the medieval maritime and commercial power par excellence, interest itself in acquiring economically worthless Bosnian territory?

The Greeks still didnt see themselves as Greek even in during the 15th century as they still clung onto the belief that they WERE Rome.
Not quite. Ever since 1204, the term "Hellene" had began making a comeback as opposed to the "Latin" west, and by the end of the empire several intellectuals preferred it as a term of self-reference. There are the seeds for a properly "Greek" identity right there, especially in view of the burgeoning Renaissance. However, as long as this state controls Constantinople, its rulers will continue to call themselves "Roman" no matter what.
 
The problem with the premise above is that expanding from the Dalmatian coast into the mountainous interior is logistically rather difficult, even more so in the Middle Ages. Furthermore, why would Venice, the medieval maritime and commercial power par excellence, interest itself in acquiring economically worthless Bosnian territory?

Not quite. Ever since 1204, the term "Hellene" had began making a comeback as opposed to the "Latin" west, and by the end of the empire several intellectuals preferred it as a term of self-reference. There are the seeds for a properly "Greek" identity right there, especially in view of the burgeoning Renaissance. However, as long as this state controls Constantinople, its rulers will continue to call themselves "Roman" no matter what.


I am trying to find a way for Venice to expand her territory and possibly using the renaissance as a propoganda and as a stepping stone to achieving this.

Ah very well, I had always considered the Byzantines as staunchly 'We are Roman'. Well in this TL they wouldnt have Constantinople, that honour would fall to the Bulgarians or Serbs depending whomever strikes the killer blow against the Turks.

And I want to somehow have Serbia pretty much do the dirty work for Venice and get rewarded due to the Venetians prowess in their merchant activities
 
I'm still reading through it. Bit busy atm what with Christmas and trying to find a new job.

I wanted a better name than Forth/Forza Venezia.. I was just lazy
 
I'm still reading through it. Bit busy atm what with Christmas and trying to find a new job.

I wanted a better name than Forth/Forza Venezia.. I was just lazy
Heh, Im sure you can find a better name. Reign of the Winged Lion sounds nice, as a quick example.
 
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