Foreign Response to a Different RN

Depends on Congress, but even Lodge would go for Tillman IVB if the RN tried to pull the FBL and then the RN would be Bohicaed.
My understanding of the Tillman designs where that they were entirely theoretical and motivated as a response to the navy building their ships bigger than those authorised by Congress and getting larger year on year and he and his colleagues wanting to see how big battleships could possibly get (ie where it would all end) and not any real desire to actually build them - hence the Tillmans being called "maximum battleships"

The Tillman IVb or IV2 is often referred to as the "least impractical" of the later designs

I seriously doubt if it could have been built to within the panamax dimensions 975 by 108 feet (297 m × 33 m) with a max draft of 39 feet 6 inches (12.04 m)

The 'lighter' Iowa's were just marginally wider than the IVbs at 33m with an 11m draft - so only just fit panamax limits and the Montanas were expected to be 37m wide

I suspect that the USAs response to a faster BL starting from the Iron Dukes would not be "Maximum Battleships" but a subtle increase in performance from the Standards and perhaps a true super heavy fast post war South Dakota/Lexington design to match / over match the subsequent RN ship designs resulting in a G3/N3 hybrid which would possibly lead to something approaching Tillman IVb or IV2 but I suspect that cooler heads would prevail and a similar or later WNT would put a stop to it.
 
Nope! All else being equal, the US is behind now in second-gen dreadnought battleships, 19 to 13. They're not likely to accept that, while the Brits won't accept being the only major power without battleships with 16" guns and Japan won't accept anything less than 60% of American tonnage. It's unlikely they'll be able to square all the circles to sign a treaty.

I should also note that if the same delays hit the South Dakota and Lexington classes they're liable to be consolidated into a fast battleship design similar to what was drawn up around 1920/1921. 12 16" guns, 30 knots, 53,000+ tons. These were not proceeded with due to concerns about obsoleting their entire battle fleet, but the Royal Navy being so flush with fast battleships means that concern goes out the window.
Huh, Interesting. And if the numbers are closer to OTL (say the Agincourts are removed from the timeline) but the speed advantage remains. Would the situation be similar to OTL but with the fast BB standing in for the South Dakotas from OTL? Or would the US want to build a couple of battleships to balance out for their loss, as the British did with the G3's?

Did wonder if you were going to make use of that, it is an interesting comment of John's.
It is. It is, as he said, speculation but it does make some amount of sense. The Colossus class are a strange last gasp of the 12" gun, and 2 more lions does seem like a better use of money and material all things considered.

Out of interest, where are you putting Beatty?

Naval Attache to Paraguay seems like a good job for him.
That would work. John at one point suggested Gallipoli, which seems like a good idea. Or at least any peripheral attack involving significant Naval Forces. It might actually play to his strengths better than the BCF did. Though I doubt it would be to his preference.
 
I didn’t mention it earlier, but it sounds interesting! Not the way that I am trying to go, but I hope you get it finished so I can read it.
Thanks for that. Unfortunately I've written more one the development of the Royal Indian Navy in 1900-1909 without figuring out to the world wide effects of the pod.
 
That would work. John at one point suggested Gallipoli, which seems like a good idea. Or at least any peripheral attack involving significant Naval Forces. It might actually play to his strengths better than the BCF did. Though I doubt it would be to his preference.

Or his wife's.....

There is also Arbruthnot to move....swapping with Craddock sounds good.
 

McPherson

Banned
My understanding of the Tillman designs where that they were entirely theoretical and motivated as a response to the navy building their ships bigger than those authorised by Congress and getting larger year on year and he and his colleagues wanting to see how big battleships could possibly get (ie where it would all end) and not any real desire to actually build them - hence the Tillmans being called "maximum battleships"

The Tillman IVb or IV2 is often referred to as the "least impractical" of the later designs

I seriously doubt if it could have been built to within the panamax dimensions 975 by 108 feet (297 m × 33 m) with a max draft of 39 feet 6 inches (12.04 m)

The 'lighter' Iowa's were just marginally wider than the IVbs at 33m with an 11m draft - so only just fit panamax limits and the Montanas were expected to be 37m wide

I suspect that the USAs response to a faster BL starting from the Iron Dukes would not be "Maximum Battleships" but a subtle increase in performance from the Standards and perhaps a true super heavy fast post war South Dakota/Lexington design to match / over match the subsequent RN ship designs resulting in a G3/N3 hybrid which would possibly lead to something approaching Tillman IVb or IV2 but I suspect that cooler heads would prevail and a similar or later WNT would put a stop to it.

Kaiser Bill II nuttery invoked. Remember Theodore Roosevelt Progressive Republicanism? "We will build/make the Canal to fit our ships!"
 
Now now, Beatty wasn't that bad. He shouldn't have been in a position commanding main fleet elements mind you but he is quite useful on the political advocacy party of the navy. You need people like him if you want your shiny new battleships without the Treasury stopping you.
 
Now now, Beatty wasn't that bad. He shouldn't have been in a position commanding main fleet elements mind you but he is quite useful on the political advocacy party of the navy. You need people like him if you want your shiny new battleships without the Treasury stopping you.
I have him provisionally slated as commander in chief Royal Indian Navy. His main job is to have Indian Prince's banquet on a cruiser paying £20,000 for the privilege and expand the role of the Royal Indian Navy.

Diplomacy with Royal Navy station commanders the Australians etc.
 
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Kaiser Bill II nuttery invoked. Remember Theodore Roosevelt Progressive Republicanism? "We will build/make the Canal to fit our ships!"
But how long would that take and would it survive subsequent changes in government - the USA does not suffer fools like Billy for long

OTL it took a very long time to get an improved PANAMAX (New PANAMAX 2016)

An interesting discussion though on when was the earliest the panama canal could be widened - perhaps a separate thread?
 
Or his wife's.....

There is also Arbruthnot to move....swapping with Craddock sounds good.
I hadn't thought of that. I had considered sending Craddock (if he survives) to be Station Commander in the Mediterranean. Post Von Spee the South Atlantic might be a good place for Arbruthnot.
 
Canadian fisheries protection might be good, somewhere near Hudson's Bay near Cape Smith would be my choice, with a side course of Polar Bear census to clear up his muddled naval thought processes.
No good for Beatty unless there is a decent social set and tennis courts

We have to consider Ethal in all this
 
I have him provisionally slated as commander in chief Royal Indian Navy. His main job is to have Indian Prince's banquet on a cruiser paying £20,000 for the privilege and expand the role of the Royal Indian Navy.
That would actually be a good fit for him. It plays both to his strengths and his huge ego (and his wife's).
 
I hadn't thought of that. I had considered sending Craddock (if he survives) to be Station Commander in the Mediterranean. Post Von Spee the South Atlantic might be a good place for Arbruthnot.

Perky50 sent Arbruthnot there in 'The Great War at Sea Take13' along with the armoured cruisers that took over the defaulters ship role from Tiger.....it was a nice touch i thought.
 

McPherson

Banned
But how long would that take and would it survive subsequent changes in government - the USA does not suffer fools like Billy for long

OTL it took a very long time to get an improved PANAMAX (New PANAMAX 2016)

An interesting discussion though on when was the earliest the panama canal could be widened - perhaps a separate thread?
1. Historically, we can cite 19th Century examples to show the case of Americans throwing the rascals out. The 20th Century is a tougher sell to me with utter fools like Wilson being so commonly elected and overstaying their tenures. Once he is gone though; and the RN kick up their heels, expect the Lodge Republicans to go ape frenzied insane.
2. Imperialism's imperative could be delayed and explained by emergent democrat party Rooseveltism (Franklin Delano Internationalism Variety). In this case I would argue CHINESE imperialism is the reason it only happens now that the locks are updated, because as far as I can tell, they are the only wrong-headed19th Century interpretation mindset followers of MAHAN and thus are funders of the current effort. The 1930s Congress and the American people were isolationist and post WWII, the "naval need" kept being postponed, because there was no "naval threat or economic reason to spend the money".
3. Panamax expansion is still actually unnecessary, I would argue, but Kaiser Bill II nuttery has apparently migrated. See 2.
 
That would actually be a good fit for him. It plays both to his strengths and his huge ego (and his wife's).
He will get off half pay a little earlier than historical and he will turn the Royal India Navy from an expense of the India office to breakeven. That said he will campaign every year for a capital ship in new appropriations.

Eventually he will need it for his ego or he might have to resign or transfer.
 

McPherson

Banned
We have to consider Ethal in all this

Ethel can hit the Washington Cocktail Circuit and meet this guy.

usn1.jpg


#WarriorWednesday: US Navy Admirals Ernest King and Grace ...

If she wore a skirt and was married to a naval man, he would home in on her. And after all, it would be a step up.
 
So, any thoughts on the lineup or (especially) the foreign response to all of this? Other ship classes for WW1 will follow.

This RN is embracing longer-ranged gunnery far earlier than the Hoods. That will be a good thing for ships operating outside the North Sea or North Atlantic. So some questions: Are balloon or kite ships or eventually even seaplane carriers becoming part of the battlefleet and battlecruiser squadrons to provide spotting to take full advantage of the range? Will light cruisers be converted to carry seaplanes to be able to keep up with the BCS? Are the ships prior to Hood still limited to the historic 'not firing within 30 degrees of centerline' because of the sighting hood issue?

If word of the earlier adoption of 30 degree elevation gets out, you might see the USN move 30 degree elevation back to the New Mexicos or even the Pennsylvanias. The US philosophy has long-range plunging fire could be decisive, doing crippling damage to enemy capital ships. While there is a low percentage change to hit, with the bulk of the battleline firing there would still be a chance of a hit per salvo or at least every other salvo. That has the potential to cripple an enemy battleship or two before the range closes to more standard battle ranges, where the long-range gunnery fleet would now have the numbers advantage.

With the RN increasing range, the High Seas Fleet might feel pressured to go to a 35cm earlier than the E. Mackensens. Perhaps in the Konigs? With RN Fleet speed increasing maybe the Germans will move the merger of the Grosskruezer and battleship back to the E. Yorcks?

Nope! All else being equal, the US is behind now in second-gen dreadnought battleships, 19 to 13. They're not likely to accept that, while the Brits won't accept being the only major power without battleships with 16" guns and Japan won't accept anything less than 60% of American tonnage. It's unlikely they'll be able to square all the circles to sign a treaty.

I disagree, CV12. The historic first draft of the treaty had in 'ships to be retained' the USN retaining only Maryland, the IJN only Nagato, while the RN's premier capital ship was to be Hood. While not 16in armed, she was so far outside the qualitative 35,000 ton limit she was considered an equal. The problem was Mutsu; she was paid for by public subscription, and the Japanese were not about to lose the good will such a program generates. So the US got to keep two 'West Virginias' (as the treaty called them) while the RN had the right to build two new ships.

In an offline conversation with our John French from the BC board, on the F2 and F3 battlecrusiers, he mentioned that F3 was the ship the RN really wanted, but once the treaty was signed, the RN felt compelled to build a 16in gunned ship. I do think Hood having 12 guns versus the historic 8 will be an obstacle to something like the historic treaty, but I think it will still be possible.

Regards all,
 
Battlecruisers of WW1(ish)

Indefatigable class

Built to a heavier, more capable standard, as was suggested in OTL. Basically, a slightly improved Von der Tann in armament layout and armour, mounting 8 x 12” guns and easily surpassing their designed speed of 25 knots in trials.

The first is laid down in 1909. That year, an Imperial Conference is held, at which Australia and New Zealand agree to pay for the purchase of two more ships. India, South Africa, and Canada also express interest. Canada and South Africa will later decide not to participate, with South Africa instead sponsoring Cruisers and Canada a later Agincourt Class battlecruiser. India will eventually settle on a single Indefatigable in late 1910 after determining that the Lion would be more difficult to maintain. The Royal Navy encourages this as it would allow the three ships in the Indian and South Pacific to work as a homogenous unit.

Lion Class
Even as the Indefatigable Class was being finalized First Sea Lord Jackie Fisher had introduced a design that he called the Nonpareil. Mounting 8 x 13.5” guns in an A,B.X,Y arrangement, all on the centre line and utilizing only oil fuel and small tube boilers to achieve 28 knots on 22,500 tons, it was an ambitious design. In some ways, too ambitious.

The rest of the Admiralty Board had serious reservations about the technical risks of such a vessel. From the back and forth a design emerged for the 1910 battlecruiser (Named the Lion Class). Fisher had succeeded in getting the increased speed of 28 knots and the 13.5” armament accepted. However, coal firing with sprayed oil and large tube boilers were maintained at the insistence of the Engineer in Chief. The fight over number of guns (several members of the board had preferred 10) had led to the Lion having a Q turret but losing X turret. Fishers influence had been sufficient to move the “Q” turret astern considerably while moving the engine and boilers rooms (and their associated funnels) ahead. This kept the firing angles of “Q” turret open and in theory allowed for both turrets to be fired aft. It was designed for 28 knots on 70,000 shp. In trials, they would make 76,000 shp but would only manage 27.5 knots speed. It was originally intended to build only one battlecruiser in the 1909-1910 estimates but the infamous “We want eight and we won’t wait!” campaign changed priorities and allowed a second Lion class to be laid down in the same year. Both ships would commission into the fleet in 1912.

Tiger Class
The increased building program in 1910 presented Fisher with an opportunity. Despite getting some of what he wanted out of the Lion design, he was unsatisfied with the compromises he had been forced to make. With the increased building program, Fisher was able to convince the board to build one of the battlecruisers to a modified design incorporating oil firing and small tube boilers. This ship, known as HMS Tiger, would help to ease the resistance to the new machinery considerably. Completing slightly smaller and on a lower displacement than the Lion class, Tiger had increased protection over her half-sisters while still having a design speed half a knot faster (which she would exceed, making 29 knots in trials). She would also be almost 100,000 pounds cheaper to construct. That the board was convinced is evidenced by the fact that they would lay down another of the class, with minor changes, in the 1911 building year. The second Tiger class would commission in 1913.

Leopard Class
In 1911 Fisher retired from the Admiralty, following the prescriptions of the 1870 Order in Council (mandated retirement for Admirals of the Fleet was 70 years old). It is somewhat ironic then, that he was able to achieve from retirement what he had failed to do as First Sea Lord. Namely, the construction of his Nonpareil concept. In truth Fisher had little to do with the final decision, but his work in previous years had certainly laid the groundwork.

The Leopard class laid down in 1912 would, at its heart, be the Nonpareil concept, slightly updated. Mounting 8 x 13.5” guns in two super firing pairs fore and aft, and using small tube, oil fired boilers she was designed for 30 knots and would make an extra half a knot in trials. It was thought that the nature of the addition of geared turbines during construction kept her from reaching her full potential. The second ship of the class (laid down 1913) would have geared turbines designed in from the start and would make 32 knots on trial. They would be the first ships in the Royal Navy to use the all-or-nothing armour scheme since the advent of QF guns in the late 19th century, and was able to increase protection to a uniform 10” over machinery and magazine spaces.

As impressive as the class is it is its accomplishment is sometimes overshadowed by the fact that they were laid down in the same years as the Queen Elizabeth and Revenge classes, which are sometimes referred to as Battlecruisers. Though they still maintained a speed advantage over their contemporaries it had been narrowed considerably, leading some to question the ships purpose.

Renown Class

The Renown class was never built. They were a design study initiated by Fisher upon his return to the Admiralty in 1914. With the Queen Elizabeth and Agincourt Classes due to complete soon, Fisher was concerned that if a 28-knot battleline became a reality the fleet scouting roll would be vacant. He commissioned a study on the viability of completing some of the Revenge class to a different design, capable of 34-35 knots. The resulting design was considered possible but would require significant sacrifices in protection.

Fisher considered this a worthwhile trade but the increased cost of the design over the Revenge class and the belief in Cabinet that the war would be short kept the extra expenditure from being allocated. It didn’t help that the Revenges were supposed to be a limited peace offering to those members of the Admiralty that were still uncomfortable with the 28-knot speed of the Queen Elizabeth class. A status that Fisher had already undermined by determining that they would be oil firing. Turning them into 35 knot light battlecruisers was a step too far. Later in the war, when the idea of a Battlecruiser for the emerging fast battle line came up, Fisher would state that he now believed that the emerging aircraft carrier would become the scouting force for the battle line in the future.
 
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