Foreign Policy of a modest Ameriwank

If the US took Sonora and Chihuahua in the Mexican Cession how would this alter the Foreign Policy of the US to European countries and the same vice versa? I've tried to find answers but the only thing I came up with was the US giving away more of Oregon to Britain and even that seems to be unlikely.
 

Sachyriel

Banned
If the US took Sonora and Chihuahua in the Mexican Cession how would this alter the Foreign Policy of the US to European countries and the same vice versa? I've tried to find answers but the only thing I came up with was the US giving away more of Oregon to Britain and even that seems to be unlikely.

Well, with the extra territory they might start with two official languages, and a larger feeling of cultural awareness with their other Latin-American brothers? Maybe instead of aid, they end up intervening military in everything, and Cuba is never allowed to be a communist nation since the US also wants the Spanish-speaking Americas to be capitalist. Heck, with the feeling of more and more brotherhood, we could see the NAU if the US had a larger Francophone population and suddenly these United-Statesians are the cultured ones. Even liberal due to speaking three languages you get a sense of 'the world is bigger than me' and eventually, maybe they go on into Vietnam and with a Canada/USA/Mexico nation, they win!

I mean, this is in no way a good thing, but with more people of a similar culture integrating into the society, then just maybe it leads to a higher path of co-operation and unity.
 

wormyguy

Banned
I mean, this is in no way a good thing, but with more people of a similar culture integrating into the society, then just maybe it leads to a higher path of co-operation and unity.

Not our style back then. Foreigners were expected to conform to American cultural norms (as they are in any country, at any time). 30% of Americas population is of some German descent, but outside of the Pennsylvania Dutch, no one speaks German. Here in Massachusetts there are lots of people of Irish or Italian or French-Canadian (me) descent, but you don't see anyone speaking Gaelic or Italian or French. Our culture having more of a "Tex-Mex" feel to it, especially in the West? Yes. Two national languages? A bit of a stretch, unless this is a really serious Ameriwank with annexations of multiple Latin American countries.
 
Well, with the extra territory they might start with two official languages, and a larger feeling of cultural awareness with their other Latin-American brothers?

See wormyguy. Also, "Latin American borthers?" There wasn't much of a sense of good feeling at this time. See the War of the Triple Alliance for a vivid example.

I suspect that you've fallen to the common "all Hispanic Americans are the same. And Mexican" fallacy. Spanish and Catholicism are the only things that unite them, really. Oh wait, Brazil, so scratch Spanish. They live in differant countries shaped by differant social and political histories. They aren't even one "ethnic group", whatever that means. Argentines are white. Peruvians are more-or-less Inca. Paraguayans can all actually speak the native Guarani language.

Maybe instead of aid, they end up intervening military in everything, and Cuba is never allowed to be a communist nation since the US also wants the Spanish-speaking Americas to be capitalist.

Change the fact that America failed to save Cuban capitalism and this is all OTL, surely? Well, if by "everything" you mean Cuba, Central America, Mexican civil strife (interesting aside: butterflies for Mexico in this scenario?), and an Anglo-Venezuelan dispute (threats count, surely? It shows the will is their), and honestly, how much further afield can America sensibly go from just Chihuahua and Sonora?

Heck, with the feeling of more and more brotherhood, we could see the NAU if the US had a larger Francophone population and suddenly these United-Statesians are the cultured ones.

Yes, because of course Canada is a predominantly Francophone nations which is positively itching to join the USA, now or at any time. Somebody get me a rolleyes smily!

Even liberal due to speaking three languages you get a sense of 'the world is bigger than me' and eventually, maybe they go on into Vietnam and with a Canada/USA/Mexico nation, they win!

Butterflies, butterflies, butterflies! Who says French Indochina will ever even exist? Besides, how will speaking French help to counter a communist insurrection? It didn't help the French!

I mean, this is in no way a good thing, but with more people of a similar culture integrating into the society, then just maybe it leads to a higher path of co-operation and unity.

*Conservative blood boils*

That's not how it works, m'kay?

As Wormyguy said, the dominance of Anglospherity in America has historically created a kind of critical-mass effect. Any smaller group, no matter how large, will ultimetatly just be eaten by the Anglos. And its not like there are that many people in Sonora.

This modest Ameriwank was been transformed into a rather-jaw-dropping Chicano-wank!
 

Sachyriel

Banned
Sorry if I was a bit snappy, but how does this answer any of my points?

Well, Ameri-wank would indicate that it's the wanking of America...we want OTL Liberalized America to 'cum' about very fast. So, I'm thinking it uses an official two languages (maybe at the state-level), and then you said something about how not all Hispanics are the same.

Sure, I get that, and I'm going to say that its not all Hispanics, it's still just a couple parcels of land from Mexico. At first it's Mexico anyways. The other states can fall into place later, or not officially at all. But the Population isn't going to be the happiest about suddenly being pushed aside, and it's kind of dumb to force them to learn the language when they're already the ones working there (writing birth certificates, death certificates, marriage licences, deeds to lands, contracts, etc). Maybe English is introduced, but Spanish will become more widespread in other States-of-Unity as well, probably faster since the English states have all the $$$.

And by Cuba, I meant Cuba. The US Militarily interfering hasn't changed anything from OTL and will probably get rougher and rougher until something breaks even earlier. And what I mean by 'Breaks' earlier is that America has to stick around after the military action and clean it's mess. Panama rings a bell, so does Nicaragua, that failed Cuban invasion (what was it? the Bay of...the Bay of...Bacon? XD heheh) has a lovely ring to it. The fact is that the United States won't stop messing about. It's not exactly pretty, but we'll try an think realistically (people make mistakes that end up costing the entire nation some valuable army time in some random nation). 'Sensibly' doesn't enter into American interventionism, at any date.

A company called United Fruit fucked over a few countries in Central America if I recall. The United States of America is bigger than a single fruit company, even in 1776. Now, they've got motive, certainly, that Manifest Destiny thing doesn't like to be kept waiting (see 1812). It likes action, brutal action in the jungle with machetes and gun. It requires the actions with machetes and guns for most of the interference that doesn't end up with an increase in official American Territory.

As for Canada, I'm not entering into that territory without Zyzzvya giving me another history lesson, but I'm sure that if America had a lot more population in 1812 we'd have been invaded and beaten like a masochistic Montreal whore. Even the British would probably run to save the Caribbean more than Canada, I know I would. Canada... Caribbean... Canada... Caribbean... Not a hard choice, I like the sun as much as most geeks.

And if you want to talk about Butterflies who says that a larger USA doesn't become the larger CSA keeping slavery until 1920? Well, I do, since it's an Ameriwank, not a Americastrate. The NAU will probably get involved in any Anti-communist Cold War just as America did, unless it becomes the first communist nation, but since we're still holding Florida in our collective hands and rubbing, let's continue with the Capitalist notion.

I mean, as an anarchist, I'd wank a Socialist United States all day, I'd be happy with this TL is we somehow worked Universal Health Care into it by 1989.

Anyways, I don't think you see the point of 'Wank'. It's not to make them powerful, it's to bring them to the best conclusion possible. A modest wank would involve some kind of liberal laws, and I'm thinking their big controversies in the ATL would be Gay Marriage, Border security in lower OTL Mexico (instead of Higher OTL Mexico like in OTL), Celebrities and the President's supposed drug habits (Or religion).

Wank wank wank wank wank: Liberal America.

I mean, Mexicans have a law in OTL that requires nap-time. How much more liberal can you get?
 
Well, Ameri-wank would indicate that it's the wanking of America...we want OTL Liberalized America to 'cum' about very fast. So, I'm thinking it uses an official two languages (maybe at the state-level), and then you said something about how not all Hispanics are the same.

Sure, I get that, and I'm going to say that its not all Hispanics, it's still just a couple parcels of land from Mexico. At first it's Mexico anyways. The other states can fall into place later, or not officially at all. But the Population isn't going to be the happiest about suddenly being pushed aside, and it's kind of dumb to force them to learn the language when they're already the ones working there (writing birth certificates, death certificates, marriage licences, deeds to lands, contracts, etc). Maybe English is introduced, but Spanish will become more widespread in other States-of-Unity as well, probably faster since the English states have all the $$$.

And by Cuba, I meant Cuba. The US Militarily interfering hasn't changed anything from OTL and will probably get rougher and rougher until something breaks even earlier. And what I mean by 'Breaks' earlier is that America has to stick around after the military action and clean it's mess. Panama rings a bell, so does Nicaragua, that failed Cuban invasion (what was it? the Bay of...the Bay of...Bacon? XD heheh) has a lovely ring to it. The fact is that the United States won't stop messing about. It's not exactly pretty, but we'll try an think realistically (people make mistakes that end up costing the entire nation some valuable army time in some random nation). 'Sensibly' doesn't enter into American interventionism, at any date.

A company called United Fruit fucked over a few countries in Central America if I recall. The United States of America is bigger than a single fruit company, even in 1776. Now, they've got motive, certainly, that Manifest Destiny thing doesn't like to be kept waiting (see 1812). It likes action, brutal action in the jungle with machetes and gun. It requires the actions with machetes and guns for most of the interference that doesn't end up with an increase in official American Territory.

As for Canada, I'm not entering into that territory without Zyzzvya giving me another history lesson, but I'm sure that if America had a lot more population in 1812 we'd have been invaded and beaten like a masochistic Montreal whore. Even the British would probably run to save the Caribbean more than Canada, I know I would. Canada... Caribbean... Canada... Caribbean... Not a hard choice, I like the sun as much as most geeks.

And if you want to talk about Butterflies who says that a larger USA doesn't become the larger CSA keeping slavery until 1920? Well, I do, since it's an Ameriwank, not a Americastrate. The NAU will probably get involved in any Anti-communist Cold War just as America did, unless it becomes the first communist nation, but since we're still holding Florida in our collective hands and rubbing, let's continue with the Capitalist notion.

I mean, as an anarchist, I'd wank a Socialist United States all day, I'd be happy with this TL is we somehow worked Universal Health Care into it by 1989.

Anyways, I don't think you see the point of 'Wank'. It's not to make them powerful, it's to bring them to the best conclusion possible. A modest wank would involve some kind of liberal laws, and I'm thinking their big controversies in the ATL would be Gay Marriage, Border security in lower OTL Mexico (instead of Higher OTL Mexico like in OTL), Celebrities and the President's supposed drug habits (Or religion).

Wank wank wank wank wank: Liberal America.

I mean, Mexicans have a law in OTL that requires nap-time. How much more liberal can you get?

Wow. You have totaly misinterpreted the concept of 'nationwank', taking a rather literal interpretation of the word wank. By your standards Decades of Darkness is not a Ameri-wank since it is hardly the paragon of liberalism.

The point of a wank is to make nation x as large as plausibly possible, not to make it liberal, unless its supposed to be a liberal-wank.
 
One might wonder whether the main effect of annexing Sonora and Chihuahua (a v strange word to type that one!) might be to open up the idea of more annexations.

Sonora and Chihuahua were part of Mexico proper, whereas Texas, New Mexico and California had separate institutions of governance. Gobbling them up opens up the possibility of adding more later - especially, for example, Vera Cruz.

It also opens up the possibility of doing so elsewhere - eg through official support for Walker in Nicaragua (if in this line of time he gets there, since there's not going to be a Sonora to experiment with first). US interest with Cuba in the 1850s was to try and buy it (they tried a deal during the Crimean War IIRC) and this sort of approach would get more impetus from owning Spanish-speaking states with some significant native population

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Well, Ameri-wank would indicate that it's the wanking of America...we want OTL Liberalized America to 'cum' about very fast. So, I'm thinking it uses an official two languages (maybe at the state-level), and then you said something about how not all Hispanics are the same.

Groaaaaaaan!

You sir, are a cad. "Cum", indeed. Now, on to the topic of debate.

Concerning Hispanic sameness: I was objecting to the idea of mid-19th-century "Latin American Brotherhood" which you mentioned, not this scenario in particular.

Sure, I get that, and I'm going to say that its not all Hispanics, it's still just a couple parcels of land from Mexico. At first it's Mexico anyways. The other states can fall into place later, or not officially at all. But the Population isn't going to be the happiest about suddenly being pushed aside, and it's kind of dumb to force them to learn the language when they're already the ones working there (writing birth certificates, death certificates, marriage licences, deeds to lands, contracts, etc). Maybe English is introduced, but Spanish will become more widespread in other States-of-Unity as well, probably faster since the English states have all the $$$.

Sure, Spanish will be used, but judging by what happened in every other place America took over where the predominant European language was not English, settlement and official policy will rapidly conspire to sqeexe Spanish into dialect words and names. Look at Louisiana. And of course there weren't many Frenchies there... there weren't many Mexicans in Sonora, either, in absolute terms. Like hell is Spanish going to spread north.

And by Cuba, I meant Cuba. The US Militarily interfering hasn't changed anything from OTL and will probably get rougher and rougher until something breaks even earlier. And what I mean by 'Breaks' earlier is that America has to stick around after the military action and clean it's mess. Panama rings a bell, so does Nicaragua, that failed Cuban invasion (what was it? the Bay of...the Bay of...Bacon? XD heheh) has a lovely ring to it. The fact is that the United States won't stop messing about. It's not exactly pretty, but we'll try an think realistically (people make mistakes that end up costing the entire nation some valuable army time in some random nation). 'Sensibly' doesn't enter into American interventionism, at any date.

Okay, what? I thought your original idea was for the US to become a bilingual country and thus be more concerned about the Hispanic American world and intervene more enthusiastically, thus aiding its wanked western hemisphere ascedency. It seems I was wrong.

A company called United Fruit fucked over a few countries in Central America if I recall. The United States of America is bigger than a single fruit company, even in 1776. Now, they've got motive, certainly, that Manifest Destiny thing doesn't like to be kept waiting (see 1812). It likes action, brutal action in the jungle with machetes and gun. It requires the actions with machetes and guns for most of the interference that doesn't end up with an increase in official American Territory.

What?

As for Canada, I'm not entering into that territory without Zyzzvya giving me another history lesson, but I'm sure that if America had a lot more population in 1812 we'd have been invaded and beaten like a masochistic Montreal whore. Even the British would probably run to save the Caribbean more than Canada, I know I would. Canada... Caribbean... Canada... Caribbean... Not a hard choice, I like the sun as much as most geeks.

You say that like the mighty British Empire couldn't have saved both! :D

In all seriosuness, though, an inexplicably bigger population won't actually change any of America's problems (overconfidence, militia enlistment-lawyers, and most importantly, the blockade).

And if you want to talk about Butterflies who says that a larger USA doesn't become the larger CSA keeping slavery until 1920? Well, I do, since it's an Ameriwank, not a Americastrate. The NAU will probably get involved in any Anti-communist Cold War just as America did, unless it becomes the first communist nation, but since we're still holding Florida in our collective hands and rubbing, let's continue with the Capitalist notion.

How does that change my comment about French Indochina?

Also, you're still a cad.

I mean, as an anarchist, I'd wank a Socialist United States all day, I'd be happy with this TL is we somehow worked Universal Health Care into it by 1989.

This is Ameriwank, not socialananarchistwank! All that the OP actually meant, if I'm not wrong was, "WI a bigger a Mexican cession. Butterflies?" Not "Liberal-wanking ASBs to your hearts content!"

Anyways, I don't think you see the point of 'Wank'. It's not to make them powerful, it's to bring them to the best conclusion possible. A modest wank would involve some kind of liberal laws, and I'm thinking their big controversies in the ATL would be Gay Marriage, Border security in lower OTL Mexico (instead of Higher OTL Mexico like in OTL), Celebrities and the President's supposed drug habits (Or religion).

A modest wank qould involve the annexation of Sonora and Chihuahua states. You are missing the point of "Ameriwank".

Wank wank wank wank wank: Liberal America.

I mean, Mexicans have a law in OTL that requires nap-time. How much more liberal can you get?

Mexico is a deeply conservative country, as far as I understand. Everybody needs naptime!
 
One might wonder whether the main effect of annexing Sonora and Chihuahua (a v strange word to type that one!) might be to open up the idea of more annexations.

Sonora and Chihuahua were part of Mexico proper, whereas Texas, New Mexico and California had separate institutions of governance. Gobbling them up opens up the possibility of adding more later - especially, for example, Vera Cruz.

It also opens up the possibility of doing so elsewhere - eg through official support for Walker in Nicaragua (if in this line of time he gets there, since there's not going to be a Sonora to experiment with first). US interest with Cuba in the 1850s was to try and buy it (they tried a deal during the Crimean War IIRC) and this sort of approach would get more impetus from owning Spanish-speaking states with some significant native population

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

I believe Walker would have gone to what remains of Mexico and cause another Mexican-American War and the USA would probably end up with more Mexican territory (this is starting to sound a little too wankish to be modest). This Second Mexican War might delay the Southern States from seceding for maybe decade or less.
 
Well, owning that area would give a large boost to the Catholic pop. They may become more tolerant to Spanish immagration, leading to no SA war. If they managa to keep good relations with Spain, a more U.S. style Spain might develop.
If the by WWI. the U.S. might enter early due to more European immgration.
 
Well, owning that area would give a large boost to the Catholic pop.

Sonora isn't the beating heart of Mexico, people! It will up the proportion of catholics, yeah, but not enormously.


They may become more tolerant to Spanish immagration, leading to no SA war.

...That's not what the Spanish-American war was about.

If they managa to keep good relations with Spain, a more U.S. style Spain might develop.

America has had good relations with loads of countries. Few of them have become Americanised until after WW2.

If the by WWI. the U.S. might enter early due to more European immgration.

Why? The voting population of the US was already entirely "European". You haven't explained why there will be more immigrants, and why they will be less assimilated.
 
If Sonora and Chihuana were American there won't be a big difference in foreign policy. The Mexicans there would assmilitate but the US might be little bit more interested in Mexico.
 
Sonora isn't the beating heart of Mexico, people! It will up the proportion of catholics, yeah, but not enormously.




...That's not what the Spanish-American war was about.



America has had good relations with loads of countries. Few of them have become Americanised until after WW2.



Why? The voting population of the US was already entirely "European". You haven't explained why there will be more immigrants, and why they will be less assimilated.
O.K. I might be wrong. But that's the fun of AH!:D
 
Mexico is a deeply conservative country, as far as I understand. Everybody needs naptime!

Not necessarily - Benito Juárez, one of the national heros of Mexico and a Zapotec Indian to boot, was deeply anti-clerical. If he's still in power in TTL, I can see his blood boiling to get Sonora and Chilhuahua back.
 
Actually, OTL, to an extent, would count as an Ameriwank.

I agree. To illustrate this statement, what would you call a world in which a country was the most advanced and powerful in the world by anyone's reckoning, had a formidable military and a formibabler economy, bases and relations absolutely everywhere, an acknowledged leadership role, victory in a global struggle for the fate of the world, the first man on the moon, the world's most spoken and important language as its mother tongue, and its national ideology widely recognised as The Way To Go, and that country was say, Germany? France? China?

Not necessarily - Benito Juárez, one of the national heros of Mexico and a Zapotec Indian to boot, was deeply anti-clerical. If he's still in power in TTL, I can see his blood boiling to get Sonora and Chilhuahua back.

You make a good point. Still, naptime is non-partisan!
 
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