Force Z - departs three weeks late

How long will the Allies wait until an Eastern Fleet is formed? In January 1942 there is an urgent need to do something. How realistic is it that ABDA Command won't use these ships if they are available? (I assume they are going to be assigned under Wavell. If they aren't I think they are going to be lots of arguing between Britain and her Allies.)

I can see the two forces (Force Z and ABDA) being kept separate. But I don't see Force Z being left at Ceylon. It's one thing to wait a week, another for several months.



Yes, in March Formidable and Warspite will be available for this fast task force. Meanwhile, the Japanese capture Singapore and the Dutch East Indies in the intervening two months while Force Z does nothing.

That doesn't seem realistic to me.

I could see the British deciding to be very conservative in their use. Do nothing that would risk losing the ships, and losing Singapore and the Dutch East Indies anyway. But I think the British would end up doing something with them in the meantime while they wait for reinforcements.

At the very least, they'll assist in the evacuation of Singapore and probably be used in the western part of the Dutch East Indies.

First
The reason is that Force Z would be kept in the Indian Ocean is because Malaya is at this time run over by the Japanese and Singapore holding on. Churchill would see that Force Z heading at this time for Singapore would loose both ship since by this time Japanese would controlled the air. So yes keep both ship in the Indian Ocean.

Second
The Eastern Fleet would be complete by the end of March 1942 and by this time Singapore have fallen so there no point to do a Dunkirk evacuation. ABDA is busy in the java sea. Maybe Force Z could be station south of Java Island but thats all because still at this time she still needs air support which there aren't enough. Remember the Japanese are winning battles rapidly so its better to have Force Z very far from these places. Maybe elements of ABDA would join Force Z like heavy cruisers HMS Exeter and USS Houston, light cruisers HMAS Perth, HMAS Hobart, USS Marblehead, HNLMS De Ruyter, HNLMS Java and many destroyers if the admiral will see that the dutch east indie are doom which Vice Admiral Conrad Helfrich would prefer ABDAto fight to the end then to give up. Never liked this admiral. :mad:
 
First
The reason is that Force Z would be kept in the Indian Ocean is because Malaya is at this time run over by the Japanese and Singapore holding on. Churchill would see that Force Z heading at this time for Singapore would loose both ship since by this time Japanese would controlled the air. So yes keep both ship in the Indian Ocean.

I think the exact timing here is important. A three week delay means Force Z could reach Singapore by December 23 if they wanted. ITTL, Indomitable should be near Cape Town on December 10 and we know per the POD Force Z is there on December 7. So if we add three more days, Force Z + Indomitable is at Ceylon on December 26.

The Japanese are still very far north of Singapore at this point. They won't reach it until very late January. While they have gained air superiority, it will take time to project that far south. The Japanese Army aircraft on Malaya likely won't be scouting the ocean approaches. They are fighting a land war.

I also think Indomitable did ferry aircraft to Singapore at this time, so it is not like this is impossible.

Honestly, are the British going to wait for three more months before doing anything? I don't find it realistic even if that is the best option in hindsight.

Second
The Eastern Fleet would be complete by the end of March 1942 and by this time Singapore have fallen so there no point to do a Dunkirk evacuation.

You are assuming the British are going to wait three months and do nothing while disaster strikes. This does not sound realistic.

Furthermore, I am not talking about a Dunkirk like evacuation. Singapore was partially evacuated IOTL. Ships were leaving in Januarya nd I think even in early February. While it is possible some of the smaller escort ships might carry troops Dunkirk style, I envision the big ships to be used as escorts to make sure the troop ships and other carriers can leave safely.

ABDA is busy in the java sea. Maybe Force Z could be station south of Java Island but thats all because still at this time she still needs air support which there aren't enough. Remember the Japanese are winning battles rapidly so its better to have Force Z very far from these places. Maybe elements of ABDA would join Force Z like heavy cruisers HMS Exeter and USS Houston, light cruisers HMAS Perth, HMAS Hobart, USS Marblehead, HNLMS De Ruyter, HNLMS Java and many destroyers if the admiral will see that the dutch east indie are doom which Vice Admiral Conrad Helfrich would prefer ABDAto fight to the end then to give up. Never liked this admiral. :mad:

Well, IOTL the British sent Indomitable to Java in January to ferry aircraft. So again, if the British sent Indomitable alone to the Dutch East Indies in January, I don't see why the expanded Force Z wouldn't.

Also, the Japanese did not have air superiority over Java at this time. Northern Borneo where they had already landed - yes. Eastern Indonesia where their carriers are - yes. Java - no, although this is only a matter of time.

Again, in real life ships did not simply wait at Ceylon for three months doing nothing. They were assets that could be used and were.

Granted, in late February things are looking bad, and the British might want to evacuate the expanded Force Z if it is still in the area and miss out on a Battle of the Java Sea scenario. But by chance or planning, it might be. The Battle of the Java Sea after all was not a carrier battle. If Indomitable/Force Z is present (and I grant this is not certain), it could probably participate safely and has a good chance sinking or driving off the invasion fleet for the moment.
 
If Malaya or Singapore is holding on, the RN can't just sit in South Africa or Ceylon with the lads are slaughtered. It's not the RN's way, having rarely left British soldiers to lose - I can't only think of Rear Admiral Sir Thomas Graves' failure to support Cornwallis at Yorktown (or more truthfully inability to beat the French out of his way).

Thus, a relief convoy needs to be prepared. Indomitable and Hermes are loaded up to ferry RAF fighters for Singapore. Additional vessels are pulled from the Med and Atlantic, likely cruisers, destroyers, submarines, troopships diverted from Atlantic convoys, etc.

For troops to consider sending, look here http://www.ww2troopships.com/crossings/1941b.htm and http://www.warsailors.com/convoys/ws12.html

Convoy #WS-12X - departs Halifax 10-Nov-41, arriving in Cape Town, South Africa 9-Dec-41. Includes over 11,000 troops. Are there other convoys to take from?

Perhaps Everything sets sail from Ceylon early January. In the meantime, can anything (Short Empires?) fly out GPMGs or other weaponry in short supply?
 
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From The War At Sea by S. K. Roskill
The main task of the surface forces of the A.B.D.A. command was initially to convoy supplies and reinforcements to Singapore. The Japanese advance down the Malay peninsula soon closed the Malacca Straits to our convoys, which thereafter had to be routed south of Sumatra and approach Singapore through the Sunda Straits. Between the 1st of January and the 8th of February, when it was decided that it was useless to throw in more reinforcements, the British and Dutch warships escorted in seven convoys comprising forty-four ships, many of them large troop transports. In all 45,000 fighting men of all services, besides large quantities of stores and equipment, were safely taken to Singapore during those five weeks. Considering the scale of sea and air attack to which our convoys were constantly exposed, the achievement was remarkable. Only in the last one, when the liner Empress of Asia ( 16,909 tons) was bombed and set on fire, was a ship lost. It was when escorting one of these convoys that the destroyer Jupiter scored a success by sinking a large Japanese submarine off the Sunda Straits.
Not only were military reinforcements poured into Singapore, but the desperate need for more aircraft, and especially for fighters, had to be met. The convoy which arrived on the 8th of January carried fifty-one crated Hurricanes, which were at once erected and flung into battle. Next the fleet carrier Indomitable came round the Cape to Port Sudan, embarked fifty more there and at once sailed east. They were flown off to Batavia on the 27th and 28th from a position south of Java; and most of them went straight on to Singapore. Early in February the aircraft transport Athene delivered to Batavia forty more Hurricanes, which she had embarked at Takoradi on the Gold Coast. It is not the smallest of the many tragedies which scar this terrible period that all these successful sea-borne reinforcement operations were of no avail.
I set the above as one single quote of two paragraphs and the website posted them as separate quotes. Does anyone know how to stop it doing that?
 
Some information on the build up of he Eastern Fleet, courtesy of Wikipaedia.

Indomitable arrived January 1942. It also said that she ran aground on 3rd November 1941 and to have at Singapore in December 1941 she would have to have been ordered there weeks earlier.

Illustrious and Formidable colloided on the night of 15/16 December 1941.

Formidable was under repair from 21st December 1941 to 3rd February 1942. Her voyage to Ceylon took from 17th February 1942 to 24th March 1942.

Illustrious was under repir from 30th December 1941 to late February 1942. She did not sail for Ceylon until 23rd March 1942 and arrived at Durban on 22nd April 1942.

If they hadn’t collided I reckon that they would have arrived at Ceylon by the end of January 1942.

Warspite arrived at Sydney on 20th February 1942 and Ceylon in March.

So by the middle of February 1941 the Eastern Fleet would have had Prince of Wales, Repulse, Indomitable, Illustrious and Formidable if Force Z had been late and Formidable and Illustrious had not collided.
 
Another Quote from Roskill
The Navy's success in escorting in the troops, equipment and aircraft was not its only service and, unfortunately, was not by itself enough. The Army's seaward flanks were completely exposed, and they appealed to the Navy to interfere with the Japanese landings which were being made behind our lines on the west coast of Malaya. To give this support was, of course, a traditional function of the Navy. But on this occasion we simply did not possess the forces to carry it out effectively; and because air cover was lacking, such little ships and craft as could be spared could only work by night. Though they failed to bring the Army any substantial relief, they did successfully evacuate 2,700 cut-off troops at the end of January. There can be little doubt that the failure to control the coastal waters on the Army's flanks contributed to the collapse on land.
So apart from strengthening the escort of the convoys to Singapore, Force Z might be used to prevent the landings on the Western coast of Malaya.
 
I think the exact timing here is important. A three week delay means Force Z could reach Singapore by December 23 if they wanted. ITTL, Indomitable should be near Cape Town on December 10 and we know per the POD Force Z is there on December 7. So if we add three more days, Force Z + Indomitable is at Ceylon on December 26.

The Japanese are still very far north of Singapore at this point. They won't reach it until very late January. While they have gained air superiority, it will take time to project that far south. The Japanese Army aircraft on Malaya likely won't be scouting the ocean approaches. They are fighting a land war.

I also think Indomitable did ferry aircraft to Singapore at this time, so it is not like this is impossible.

Honestly, are the British going to wait for three more months before doing anything? I don't find it realistic even if that is the best option in hindsight.

You are assuming the British are going to wait three months and do nothing while disaster strikes. This does not sound realistic.

Furthermore, I am not talking about a Dunkirk like evacuation. Singapore was partially evacuated IOTL. Ships were leaving in Januarya nd I think even in early February. While it is possible some of the smaller escort ships might carry troops Dunkirk style, I envision the big ships to be used as escorts to make sure the troop ships and other carriers can leave safely.

Well, IOTL the British sent Indomitable to Java in January to ferry aircraft. So again, if the British sent Indomitable alone to the Dutch East Indies in January, I don't see why the expanded Force Z wouldn't.

Also, the Japanese did not have air superiority over Java at this time. Northern Borneo where they had already landed - yes. Eastern Indonesia where their carriers are - yes. Java - no, although this is only a matter of time.

Again, in real life ships did not simply wait at Ceylon for three months doing nothing. They were assets that could be used and were.

Granted, in late February things are looking bad, and the British might want to evacuate the expanded Force Z if it is still in the area and miss out on a Battle of the Java Sea scenario. But by chance or planning, it might be. The Battle of the Java Sea after all was not a carrier battle. If Indomitable/Force Z is present (and I grant this is not certain), it could probably participate safely and has a good chance sinking or driving off the invasion fleet for the moment.

First: Well I started to due an investigation and found that by January 18 all military planes in Malaya and Singapore were destroyed while a small number of Dutch planes (mainly Buffalos) retreated to Java. The last couple of Buffalos to fly were destroyed by December 22, 1941 so there maybe 8 damage buffalo that can't fly by the end of December. Kuala Lumpar surrender by January 11, 1942 and was 200 miles from Singapore. On January 14, 1942 the japanese forces were in Johor which neighbors Singapore. Meaning that by this time, all of Malaya was under the controlled of japanese troops and the strait of malacca was close for british reinforcement. Now if Force Z is to sail for Singapore, it was to sail way south off Sumatra and head through the Sunda strait.

Second: Also during some investigation I found that a small portion of the Commonwealth army left from Singapore either through injurys or escape. The japanese didn't want any commonwealth troops from leaving so they attack any ship leaving from Singapore. Two american troop ships took part and were hit by japanese planes, USS Wakefield and USS West Point. Here is a link towards the last couple of convoy for singapore http://www.netherlandsnavy.nl/Singapore.html

Third: About HMS Indomitable she arrived off Sumatra to fly off 48 Hurricanes. "Indomitable joined the Eastern Fleet based at Ceylon, now Sri Lanka. At the end of January, she ferried 48 Royal Air Force Hawker Hurricanes to airfields in Sumatra in the Dutch East Indies, to reinforce the air defenses of Singapore, but a large proportion of the Hurricanes were destroyed on the ground by Japanese air raids." So the island of Sumatra is also japanese air superiority and could attack at will at any airfield on the island.
Also Force Z maybe could be sent south and maybe station at Tjilatjap (Cilacap) to support the ABDA Fleet but since Acting Vice Admiral Tom Phillips would not agree with what Vice Admiral Conrad Helfrish maybe he will take Force Z to Perth and start duçoing escort.
 
If Malaya or Singapore is holding on, the RN can't just sit in South Africa or Ceylon with the lads are slaughtered. It's not the RN's way, having rarely left British soldiers to lose - I can't only think of Rear Admiral Sir Thomas Graves' failure to support Cornwallis at Yorktown (or more truthfully inability to beat the French out of his way).

Thus, a relief convoy needs to be prepared. Indomitable and Hermes are loaded up to ferry RAF fighters for Singapore. Additional vessels are pulled from the Med and Atlantic, likely cruisers, destroyers, submarines, troopships diverted from Atlantic convoys, etc.

For troops to consider sending, look here http://www.ww2troopships.com/crossings/1941b.htm and http://www.warsailors.com/convoys/ws12.html

Convoy #WS-12X - departs Halifax 10-Nov-41, arriving in Cape Town, South Africa 9-Dec-41. Includes over 11,000 troops. Are there other convoys to take from?

Perhaps Everything sets sail from Ceylon early January. In the meantime, can anything (Short Empires?) fly out GPMGs or other weaponry in short supply?

here is a link of the last couple of convoys for Singapore http://www.netherlandsnavy.nl/Singapore.html
 
Some information on the build up of he Eastern Fleet, courtesy of Wikipaedia.

Indomitable arrived January 1942. It also said that she ran aground on 3rd November 1941 and to have at Singapore in December 1941 she would have to have been ordered there weeks earlier.

Illustrious and Formidable colloided on the night of 15/16 December 1941.

Formidable was under repair from 21st December 1941 to 3rd February 1942. Her voyage to Ceylon took from 17th February 1942 to 24th March 1942.

Illustrious was under repir from 30th December 1941 to late February 1942. She did not sail for Ceylon until 23rd March 1942 and arrived at Durban on 22nd April 1942.

If they hadn’t collided I reckon that they would have arrived at Ceylon by the end of January 1942.

Warspite arrived at Sydney on 20th February 1942 and Ceylon in March.

So by the middle of February 1941 the Eastern Fleet would have had Prince of Wales, Repulse, Indomitable, Illustrious and Formidable if Force Z had been late and Formidable and Illustrious had not collided.

If that would occurred then yes by February they would be at Ceylon. Also seeing that this ships are there the ABDA Fleet command which at this time is Admiral Hart would decide to send his fleet to join the Eastern Fleet. Then it would have 3 large aircraft carriers, 1 light carrier, 5 battleships (4 old 1 modern), 1 battlecruiser, 6 heavy cruisers (5 British 1 American), 20 light cruisers (9 british old 3 modern; 1 american old 1 modern; 4 dutch; 2 australian) and lots of destroyers and submarines. With a fleet like this they can attack and defend Ceylon by April 1942. In fact there is a topic on it here is the link: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=305957&highlight=April+1942
 
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