For want of a V2 (a rocketry WI)

Basically nothing? Goddard didn't really work on solid rockets as far as I know, he was focused on liquids mostly. Quite rightly, too, because liquids, at the time, could offer interesting performance, whereas solids were still basically black powder or a little bit better, with utterly atrocious specific impulse (and hence performance). The solid work that Archibald is referring to took place at JPL beginning around 1940--maybe a few years earlier, maybe a year or two later--and involved the invention of composite solid propellants that could (eventually) match liquid-fuel ISPs.
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Ok. All i remember of Goddards work in this is in 1918 he provided the US Army with a rocket motor to propel a standard rifle grenade out of a shoulder held tube. That was a solid or dry fueled rocket.

Col L Skinners bio states he was assigned to Aberdeen Proving Ground in 1932 & soon started experimenting with rocket motors. Not clear if he was working with solid fuel or both solid and liquid. Circa 1940 he proposed a weapon very similar to Goddards 1918 weapon for antitank use. The proposal was sucessfully tested in 1941 & went into production in 1942. Skinner is suposed to have been interested in rocketry as a teenager & experimenting with rockets as early as 1915. Perhaps he had been familar with Goddards work.
 
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I don't know if such projectiles/guns are feasible ; but no one had done any ballistics research much beyond 1400m/s ,during the war [but the saboted FLAK shells had increasing dispersion]. It took a fair bit of research -post war- to make arrow projectiles work.

I gather that heavy allied AAA did really well with cm radar and VT fuses. That sounds like a simpler solution...that and wire guided AAM from Destroyer fighters.
 

marathag

Banned
then how does the Apollo program develop? No von Braun almost certainly means no F-1 rocket engine, and no F-1 means no Saturn V

from an older post of mine

Now the vital Paperclip guy was Dieter Huzel, at North American. He and the NAA team improved the wartime V-2 to the XLR-41 Mark III engine, 330,000kN thrust, 25% greater thrust while 15% lighter.
In a few years, it was developed into the Rocketdyne XLR-83-NA-1, that had regenerative cooling and changed from alcohol to kerosene/RP1, and then the MB-1/LR79, that ended up developed into engines for the Atlas, Blue Streak, Delta, Jupiter, Thor, and Saturn rocket families.

And if the US wasn't interested in ICBMs, they were for cruise missiles. By 1947, the winged A4b was found to be all wrong as far as stability. Everything was redone, so at best the Navaho was only 'inspired' by the paper A4b
 
No V2 program means *a lot* or resources that get invested elsewhere and likely an extension of the European theater by 6-12 months as a result.

Most obvious butterflies:
-More common assault rifles
-Type XXI u-boats make appearance in numbers and may drag war on another 3 months
-Further casualties, especially on Eastern Front, maybe over a million
-USSR behind 4-7 years on rocketry innovations and first satellite might not launch until late 1960s
-Space race delayed and probably very different outcome (maybe man has yet to walk on the moon?)

Less obvious butterflies:

-Germany will get farther ahead on the Uranverein project but not sure about how far they get
-Paperclip delayed or changed significantly. Maybe Manfred von Ardenne comes to the West?
-Zuse might get the Z4 up and running earlier though actual impact could be minimal
-Germany may get He011 or other second generation/late first generation jets into the air in numbers
 

marathag

Banned
No V2 program means *a lot* or resources that get invested elsewhere and likely an extension of the European theater by 6-12 months as a result.

Of Hitler funds another daffy plan for vengeance with those funds, like the V3
hdp.jpg
Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1981-147-30A%2C_Hochdruckpumpe_V-3.jpg

or produces the Maus in quantity.
 
Overall the big issue is how much did Von Braun and his people (and their equivalents in Russia) actually contribute to the U.S. and Russia. I can say off the top of my head that in the U.S. by 1945 Karl Bossart was proposing the initial design for Atlas (which by including a monocoque structure and proposals for vernier control alone was superior to the V-2 design) and that supposedly the design of the V-2's engine in many ways mirrored Goddard's work on liquid fuel rockets. And, just out of curiosity, does anyone know how much of the technical work that went into Vanguard, a Navy program, or of Atlas, an Air Force program, was actually inspired by work by Von Braun and co., who were located at the Army Ballistic Missile Agency? In the Soviet Union though, based off of Zaloga's books on the topic, the contribution of the German's they had in their employ utterly paled in comparison to Soviet engineers. It's been a while since I read those, so I don't remember exactly how much the Soviet's actually learned in the process of building their own copies of the V-2 technically, but I can say that the German engineers were put into their own design bureau separate for Korolev, Chelomey, etc, and the German design bureau ended up only ever designing two missiles and the best their designs saw were entering into limited production.

Technically, I'd say that the U.S. and U.S.S.R. were both in a position where even a complete lack of German talent doesn't actually harm their missile and ultimately space efforts notably. Their domestic talent was more than capable and was responsible for the lion's share of the work in their missile and space efforts. The far bigger issue for the Soviets would be whether people like Korolev end up getting out of the Gulag system without the impetus for rocketry research created by the V-2, but that is a product of the far greater impact that individual personalities had in that part of the Soviet system as compared to the American military-industrial complex.
 

marathag

Banned
Charlie Bossart and the rest of the Convair Rocket team didn't have paperclip Germans, but the engine developed for the Navaho and the passed to Atlas, did.

USN Vanguard was a cobble-up of existing Sounding rockets that really weren't that military.
 
V3 could have worked...

...But a chalk hill with a thin concrete plate at the muzzle did not protect the deep workings at Mimoyecques. Redesigning WW2 in my Heligoland Book 2 I have the V2 ignored (as it damn near was) and the cash put into developing the Fi103 as a faster swept-wing missile and as a glider bomb. The capable Hugo Sperrle in place of Goering, BTW...

For a POD, have Himmler order Von Braun shot for 'wasting Reichsmarks' and the project delayed so it never gets deployed operationally, resources going into 'Wasserfall'.
 
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Deleted member 1487

V3 could have worked...

...But a chalk hill with a thin concrete plate at the muzzle did not protect the deep workings at Mimoyecques. Redesigning WW2 in my Heligoland Book 2 I have the V2 ignored (as it damn near was) and the cash put into developing the Fi103 as a faster swept-wing missile and as a glider bomb. The capable Hugo Sperrle in place of Goering, BTW...

For a POD, have Himmler order Von Braun shot for 'wasting Reichsmarks' and the project delayed so it never gets deployed operationally, resources going into 'Wasserfall'.
The V-1 was going to have a disposable jet engine made for it, but it was still being tested at the end of the war. It would have increased speed and altitude and eliminated the need of anything to launch it other than an aircraft runway.
 
Thank you...

...An earlier application (more Reichsmarks) could have made things Hell for London. My paternal grandparents survived a near-miss (next street) in Herne Hill, which had the highest number of doodlebug hits of the war. More missiles (or greater accuracy) and I might not have been born. My mother was with them under the dining room table in 1944 when the ceiling collapsed; my father had landed in France by then, I think. They married in 1949 and I was born in 1953.
 
Of Hitler funds another daffy plan for vengeance with those funds, like the V3 ... or produces the Maus in quantity.

It's the materials devoted to the project as much as the funds. Alloys that could produce jet engines are no longer being allocated to rocketry here. Aircraft and especially jets benefit disproportionately. It might even allow an acceleration of other aircraft research projects.
 
Germany could improve jet engine production...

...Junkers Jumo engines with alloy steels not mild steel 12-15 hour knockoffs. Good news for the Me262 and the He162. Going to make life hard for Allied bomber crews.
 
Maybe getting Jumo 004s into the field 12-18 months earlier with an extra 10-20% power in the process?
 
The 2 meter long 155kg ARGUS-014 pulse jet for the V-I ; generated 600lb thrust -pushing the >2ton missile ~ 400mph for better part of 2/5th of an hour. The warhead was 900kg leaving ~ 1050t for the aluminum frame ; guidance and fuel. That suggests 500kg fuel to drive the 155kg pulse jet for 2/5th hour. Reportedly 31,000 of these boosters were built in the last year of the war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-1_flying_bomb

The rocket was developed in 1942 but the missile and especially the guidance took more years to develop and put into service [1944]. So in theory it could have been used as a glorified booster attached to each side of the fuselage of Nazi fighter bombers ; like the ME-210/410 or DO-217. One drawback is that this jet functioned best at less than 1 km altitude. Combined with the bigger prop engine these fighter bombers could boosted their 1km altitude speed from 330mph to 380mph.

Interestingly enough none of the Soviet fighters [YAK 1/4/9 or Mig 1/3] could reach this speed at that altitude . In addition none of the allied naval fighters could reach that speed at that altitude. Worse none of the allied fighters could reach that speed @ 1km altitude, except the P-47 M/N and the various jets developed at the end of the war. Obviously any allied fighter on air patrol at higher altitude, can trade altitude to build up speed and bounce such intruders, but if they cant match the boosted fighter bombers 1km altitude speed - they can only make single passes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argus_As_014

An industry of 30,000 engines could provide boosters for a fleet of ~ 1700 fighter bombers per week for a whole year.
 

marathag

Banned
So in theory it could have been used as a glorified booster attached to each side of the fuselage of Nazi fighter bombers ;

Problem was the excessive amount of vibration, enough that the Germans couldn't add more guidance than a basic autopilot that would hold heading and altitude.
Add two, you can't synchronize them, you will get sympathetic vibration, far, far worse as oscillations feed into themselves.

The Messerschmitt Me-328A was one such attempt
me328_mist.jpg

That had complete structural failure
 
sympathetic vibrations from jets one on each side was always there but they overcame those.


BTW V-I accuracy started at 12% of range but was reduced to 4-5% of range later . Why?

V-2 had a similar accuracy improvement from 5% down to 1% of range. That occurred as a result of radio guidance refining the ballistic arc during the assent of the rocket.

How did ther V-1 improve its accuracy?
 

Deleted member 1487

sympathetic vibrations from jets one on each side was always there but they overcame those.


BTW V-I accuracy started at 12% of range but was reduced to 4-5% of range later . Why?

V-2 had a similar accuracy improvement from 5% down to 1% of range. That occurred as a result of radio guidance refining the ballistic arc during the assent of the rocket.

How did ther V-1 improve its accuracy?
Improved targeting methods. They were still figuring out the weapon when they rushed it into service, as they figured out how to better target it and were able to observe the fall of shot in Antwerp they figured it out better. Plus the airborne launched ones were much more accurate without the ground launch issues. When they got their planned disposable jet engines into production for it they wouldn't need the launch pads and would have increased accuracy due to the better rise to altitude rate and operating performance.
 
The Me 382 was a tiny 4t wooden fighter built in a rush, so it could hardly be expected handle much stress or vibration. V-I was worse at only 2 tons. The fighter bombers were 8-15 ton well built metal planes stressed for dive bombing etc and thus would be much less effected by any vibration/stress.
 
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