For Want of a Pretender: James VIII dies in 1708

In 1708, James VIII (or James Francis Edward Stuart) dies of measles.

Effects, anyone?

No Jacobite uprisings in 1715 and 1745. The Scottish Highlanders are not subjected to virtual cultural and ethnic cleansing by the vengeful English crown. The traditional clan system in Scotland survives, albeit probably with modifications over time. Many Highland Scots who lost title to their lands during these English persecutions (with the lands being bought up by English or lowland Scots landlords in most cases) retain their land. As a result, the "Highland Clearances" of the late 18th and early 19th centuries are not nearly as pervasive and there is a much reduced Scottish diaspora as a result.

The British Army may not form Highland Regiments, or at least not as early as they were formed in OTL, as these were formed post 1745 in large part as a way to utilize the warlike qualities of the Highlanders which had been proven by the Jacobite revolts of 1715 and especially 1745. This by itself could have major butterflies in all sorts of battles fought by British arms over the next 3 centuries.

One not so minor butterfly effect of all this...the British most likely lose the Battle of Bloody Marsh in Georgia during the War of Jenkins Ear (in OTL, a group of Scottish Highlanders recently settled in Darien played a decisive role in the battle, and in all likelihood, these settlers would not have ended up in Georgia in such an ATL). The Georgia Colony is destroyed and Spain reclaims all the land up to the Savannah River.
 

Thande

Donor
No Jacobite uprisings in 1715 and 1745.

Or, more to the point, 1709.

Calling royal experts: who does the Jacobite claim devolve to in this case?

Without the Highland Clearances, Scotland's history is less bloody but it will most probably be much more of a primitive backwater, like Ireland's little brother . And, of course, my family will stay in Scotland.
 
Or, more to the point, 1709.

Calling royal experts: who does the Jacobite claim devolve to in this case?

Without the Highland Clearances, Scotland's history is less bloody but it will most probably be much more of a primitive backwater, like Ireland's little brother . And, of course, my family will stay in Scotland.

Uh... Queen Anne, actually. :cool:
 
Yes, but when Anne dies, who then?

Good point, though, that ought to confuse the Jacobite movement...maybe turn it into a sideline irrelevance...

...According to wiki, it looks like "Anne II", wife of the King of Savoy.

And I agree, without actual Stuarts, Jacobitism should really get sidelined.

That would be Charles Stuart, or Charles III

...He won't be born for another 11 years after his father's POD'd death.
 
Or, more to the point, 1709.

Calling royal experts: who does the Jacobite claim devolve to in this case?

Without the Highland Clearances, Scotland's history is less bloody but it will most probably be much more of a primitive backwater, like Ireland's little brother . And, of course, my family will stay in Scotland.

So basically you're living in a thatched croft, wearing a kilt, and tending rough looking cattle in the Highlands, instead of what you're doing now?
 
Will the American Revolution still happen, or is it butterflied away?

If, as I speculate above, Britain fails to form the Highland Regiments on schedule, the resulting reduction in manpower might very well cause Britain to lose the French and Indian Wars. The French never entertained a notion of driving Britain completely from the continent...they just wanted control of the trans-Appalachian interior. So if they win the war, the twelve colonies (Georgia, as mentioned earlier, probably doesn't survive the War of Jenkins' Ear in this ATL) are thus going to be restricted to the Atlantic Seaboard. If that happens, the Revolution certainly won't happen, as the colonies will still need Britain's support against the French enemy on their doorsteps, and will likely not resist too much when Britain starts taxing them to support the military establishment which protects them.
 

Thande

Donor
So basically you're living in a thatched croft, wearing a kilt, and tending rough looking cattle in the Highlands, instead of what you're doing now?
Pretty much, yeah :D While VulcanTrekkie's family is just down the road in their farmhouse, claiming to be Irish ;)

If, as I speculate above, Britain fails to form the Highland Regiments on schedule, the resulting reduction in manpower might very well cause Britain to lose the French and Indian Wars.
I don't think that necessarily follows. It is possible, but not necessarily the case.

As you said above, Georgia was a mostly Scottish colony; without this, the Cherokee and the other Indians in that region (and also Florida) will face less European expansion, and might be able to resist it for longer. And of course if the USA or something similar is still formed, there'll only be 12 colonies.

I think the absence of the Highland regiments is much more likely to dent the British Empire in India than affect events in North America: the Highland regiments were extremely important in several key battles there from the 1740s to the 1820s.
 
I don't think that necessarily follows. It is possible, but not necessarily the case.

As you said above, Georgia was a mostly Scottish colony; without this, the Cherokee and the other Indians in that region (and also Florida) will face less European expansion, and might be able to resist it for longer. And of course if the USA or something similar is still formed, there'll only be 12 colonies.

I think the absence of the Highland regiments is much more likely to dent the British Empire in India than affect events in North America: the Highland regiments were extremely important in several key battles there from the 1740s to the 1820s.

I agree that the Scottish contribution to British victory in India was more important than their role in the victory in the French and Indian War. However, it is that very fact which makes it MORE likely that Britain loses the French and Indian War if the Highland Regiments are not formed. If Britain finds itself short of manpower in India, its likely to shift men from America to India to stabilize the situation there. India, after all, was the jewel the English truly coveted. Which means there are even less men to defend America, over and above the deficit caused by the absence of the Highland Regiments which actually fought in America.
 
The are going to be the Highland Clearances, and probably at around the same time or before. They were just the process of enclosure reaching Highland Scotland, just as had swept through the rest of Britain previously. The Clan Laird's are still going to go through the mental transformation from feudal patron to landlord - it may even happen earlier without the rebellion so that the clan leaders become integrated into the British upper classes sooner, and it will still be more profitable for them to keep livestock than people on the land.

Most of the clearances weren't done under the command of absentee English or Lowland landowners, part of the reason they were so shocking to their victims was that they involved a betrayal of the trust and their reciprocal feudal responsibilities owed by the clan lairds to their people.
 

Susano

Banned
...According to wiki, it looks like "Anne II", wife of the King of Savoy.
Well, Queen Anne will probably be proclaimed attainted, so Jacobite succession would skip to Anne of Orleans/Savoy. Of course, she is no Stuart. The only thing she still has in common with the STuarts is the Catholci Religion, and that alone wont rally many people - in Scotland, too, Catholic swere at best a minority, after all...
 
I think the whole Jacobite issue dies a quick death. It's only real strength was that it supported the claims of the legitimate male senior line of the Stuarts against the usurpation of the junior lines. Anne of Savoy will never even enter into the discussions after the death of James, as riveting as the personal union of Britain and Piedmont-Savoy would be.

What will be interesting is the fate of James' sister, Louisa Maria Teresa. In 1708, she's an apparently healthy lady of sixteen and she's the Stuart claimant after Anne, as the only other surviving child of James II. Her OTL death in 1712 was smallpox related, so I think it quite possible that that gets butterflied away.

Her biggest problem was that she was a Catholic, but that's not an insurmountable obstacle. The Act of Succession could be amended to allow a regency, or a joint monarchy with all executive power vested in her husband (a la William and Mary), or even that her claim passes directly to her first legitimate child, who will be raised Prtestant.

Given that James could have claimed the throne fairly easily if he had converted, I think its a virtual certainty that Louisa would be rehabilitated and married to a good protestant prince/crown prince/king. No body really wanted the Hanoverians, they were just the only availble choice. Depending on the choices made, (and let's not be boring by picking a younger son) you could get an interesting set of personal union coming from her marriage.

George of Hanover (OTL George II) is already married, so that line won't work, unless Caroline of Brandenberg-Ansbach dies early. So no Hanoverian union. Likewise, Frederick William of Prussia had just married Sophia Dorotea, so that won't work either.

However, Christian VI of Denmark might be worth having a look at. He's a six/seven years younger than Louisa but that can be dealt with. His father, Frederick IV could use some help in the Great Northern War. Britain could use the leverage in the Baltic. Christian's reign in Denmark would be a good few years away, so there would be time to plan for the union. Anne's consort, Prince George, was a son of Frederick III (and a Great, Great-uncle of young Christian IV??) would probably push the union. The Whigs would probably go for it as it would undoubtedly further parliament's position with respect to the monarchy. All going well, the couple could firm up the succession by 1720 or so and the house of Stuart-Oldenburg would be born.

So..eventually we'd we could have Christian I/VI, by Grace of God, King of England, Denmark, Scotland, Norway and Ireland, Duke of Schleswig, Holstien and Lancaster, etc...

If they ever got around to Union talks, it would be very interesting.

Let the butterflies start flapping...
 
The are going to be the Highland Clearances, and probably at around the same time or before. They were just the process of enclosure reaching Highland Scotland, just as had swept through the rest of Britain previously. The Clan Laird's are still going to go through the mental transformation from feudal patron to landlord - it may even happen earlier without the rebellion so that the clan leaders become integrated into the British upper classes sooner, and it will still be more profitable for them to keep livestock than people on the land.

Most of the clearances weren't done under the command of absentee English or Lowland landowners, part of the reason they were so shocking to their victims was that they involved a betrayal of the trust and their reciprocal feudal responsibilities owed by the clan lairds to their people.

Whether or not the Clearances will still occur is highly debatable. It could be argued that it was the destruction of the traditional clan system as a result of the English repression following the failed Jacobite rebellions...and along with it, the mutual obligations that system created between the clan chief and his people...which allowed the clan chiefs/lairds to proceed with the clearances.

Specifically, The Tenures Abolition Act ended the feudal bond of military service and the Heritable Jurisdictions Act removed the virtually sovereign power the chiefs had over their clan. This effectively freed the mass of the clan members from the obligations they owed their chiefs. It was only natural that the chiefs would now consider that they no longer owed reciprocal obligations to the members of the clan, which would allow them to look on clan members as mere tenants on their land, rather than, essentially, members of the clan chief's extended family who the chief was bound to protect.

In an ATL where these acts are not passed, and where the clan system survives basically intact, it will be much more difficult for the chiefs to act as they did in OTL. Some clearances no doubt will still occur, but the scale of them would most likely be much reduced. The Scottish diaspora, likewise, is going to be much reduced as a result.
 
Whether or not the Clearances will still occur is highly debatable. It could be argued that it was the destruction of the traditional clan system as a result of the English repression following the failed Jacobite rebellions...and along with it, the mutual obligations that system created between the clan chief and his people...which allowed the clan chiefs/lairds to proceed with the clearances.

Specifically, The Tenures Abolition Act ended the feudal bond of military service and the Heritable Jurisdictions Act removed the virtually sovereign power the chiefs had over their clan. This effectively freed the mass of the clan members from the obligations they owed their chiefs. It was only natural that the chiefs would now consider that they no longer owed reciprocal obligations to the members of the clan, which would allow them to look on clan members as mere tenants on their land, rather than, essentially, members of the clan chief's extended family who the chief was bound to protect.

In an ATL where these acts are not passed, and where the clan system survives basically intact, it will be much more difficult for the chiefs to act as they did in OTL. Some clearances no doubt will still occur, but the scale of them would most likely be much reduced. The Scottish diaspora, likewise, is going to be much reduced as a result.

The clearances that do happen could also provoke a much more violent reaction from the Highlanders. If the manpower and political energy spent in the failed Jacobite Rebellions is not used up, and just stays in the Highlands, then attempts at enclosure could create massive communal violence, as some clan leaders attempt clearance, and are resisted by the better organized and more cohesive clan system.
 
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