For Want of a Nail, Revisited.

Well, fellow AHers, I betcha you may be surprised to see this, but......
I have been a 'For All Nails' aficionado for some time now, and it was one of those TLs that inspired me to write my own. However, though, one question, above all has been floating around in my mind. For those who haven't read the series, The Confederation of North America is basically a much larger(and more populous!) Canada with a larger military and a far greater influence in world politics(and doesn't even have a British sovereign! Or at least not in modern times, anyway). The United States of Mexico is kind of like OTL's Mexico, with a Southern/Yankee flair, and has been, unfortunately, similarly troubled, including the rule of at least 2 dictators, not to mention that slavery was legal until 1915 ITTL.

And what I've wondered is, "What if the two powers had their roles reversed?" That is, what if Mexico were the functioning democracy and if the CNA was the troubled hot spot? It's a bit of a challenge, but I always thought I'd be fun to try.

There are a few things still up in the air, though, like whether the U.S. simply never forms as per the original, or if it just loses some of its territory to the Brits but still surviving; if Britain lets go of the CNA due to revolution, or thru a peaceable agreement; and, most of all, if I should do a basic reversal of the TL, or make it really unique, or something in between(i.e. staying faithful to the original while adding unique twists and such.).

Any thoughts, suggestions, etc.?

My first post may come within a few days, btw. Maybe sooner if I can get some help. :)

(P..S. TBH, At the rate I've been going lately, I think I've possibly started to become an American version of Tony Jones........:p)
 
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*Bump*

Anybody out there?........I may need a little help. Any ideas, suggestions, etc. are very much appreciated. :)
 
Well, I think that the C.N.A. did still have a monarch, but you could do something during the starkist riots such as having Gallivan assasinated. Admittedly, the U.S.M. would still fare poorly, but the C.N.A. would be doing even worse.
 
Well, I think that the C.N.A. did still have a monarch, but you could do something during the starkist riots such as having Gallivan assasinated. Admittedly, the U.S.M. would still fare poorly, but the C.N.A. would be doing even worse.

Hey Ted, so glad to hear from you. TBH, I haven't exactly decided which figures would survive this little reboot of mine, but I may have a place for Ezra Gallivan, somewhere........;)
 
Hello there. Sorry for the delay.

Terribly sorry for the wait, but life kinda got in the way. In the meantime, here's a super-sized teaser for what's to come.

FWoAN Revisited #1: How It All Began.

Excerpted from, 'The Journal of World History', Liberty Tree Press, San Francisco, Calif., U.S.M.

Special Edition! July 4, 1976. Overview.

We here at the Journal of World History have taken the liberty(no pun intended), to devote a couple of gigantic, super-sized issues to the saga of one of the most vitally important milestones of modern history. 200 years ago today, a group of idealistic thinkers from across the 13 Colonies of British America, some tinkers, some farmers, and some entrepreneurs and men of law, came together and declared the formation of the world's very first modern democratic republic, known to them as the United States of America. Why was this so important, you ask? Not only was it the first European colony to declare independence, but it was also the first nation to experiment with proto-nationalism, which did not exist, as we now know it, before 1776. Though it's bid for independence as envisioned by its founders was eventually thwarted, and many of its leaders either executed, as in the case of Alexander Hamilton and George Washington, or exiled, as with James Madison and Thomas Jefferson, the nation's brief 14 year existence inspired many other rebellions, some as far away as Turkey or Russia; perhaps the most successful was the one in France in 1788, in which Louis XVI and his wife, Marie Antoinette, were forced to flee to the Canadas, and then Haiti, where both were killed by the uprising led by Francois Toussaint in 1804.

The Revolutionary War lasted between 1775 and 1789 and cost approximately 160,000 lives; it also took a severe toll on Britain's authority in North America.
The origins of America's rebellion went back to 1764, when the first paid in a series of many colonial taxes went into effect; namely, the Sugar Act & Currency Act. These taxes were supposedly originally intended to pay off debts incurred by the French and Indian War of 1756-63, according to the public declaration of British authorities; most colonists had not objected to contributing to the cost of their defense and had, in fact, had done things such as fundraising for the training and outfitting of colonial militias, so it seemed to be perfectly fair to many people at first. However, though, the truth was, in reality, that some rather strange, unworkable, and even dishonest schemes were beginning to arise after the end of that war. One, in particular, was the selling and purchasing of ranks in the British Army & Navy, which was particularly popular with many aristocrats, and positions sometimes went for thousands of pounds apiece. This might not have arised much ire, but there was a serious problem: The British military officials were unwilling to include any colonial officials in this scheme and sought to perpetuate it only amongst themselves. Furthermore, Colonial officers, regardless of rank, was still required to submit to any regular British officer, no matter their rank.

This had the rather unfortunate effect of basically negated the legal authorities to either conduct, or even contribute to, their legal defense. To make matters worse, 1,500 British officers still remained in the area, and London faced the possibility of having to recall them back to Britain if they couldn't be assigned to posts in North America. It soon became clear that the only real reason for the new taxation was to prove Parliament's supremacy, and for the use of the patronage of these more ambitious British officials. London, of course, officially stated that the colonists were 'virtually' represented, though many Americans immediately rejected this.

The 1765 Stamp Tax made the problems even worse; it was the first direct tax on the colonies, and required just about anything made of paper or similar material to have the stamps, and many representatives from all 13 of the colonies protested harshly at this. In fact, opposition to what many saw as terribly unfair taxation policies, amongst other things, was so prevalent that in October of that year, 9 of the 13 colonies sent delegates to New York City to argue their case. John Dickinson and a group of other moderates drew up the 'Declaration of Rights and Grievances', which stated that Englishmen in the colonies were having their rights violated by actions such as taxation without popular representation.

Benjamin Franklin, another reformist, himself offered a case for rebuttal, remarking that the colonies had spent a heavy toll in manpower, money, and blood in defense of the home country and that any further taxes to fill the coffers of London's treasury could spark a rebellion. The Wentworth government debated the merits of this for a while, and then repealed it in late 1765 or early 1766. However, Parliament continued to insist that they retained full power to make laws for the colonies for any reason whatsoever.

And in 1767, the Townshend Acts not only superseded all the previous taxes but added onto them as well, now including goods such as tea. This is commonly believed to have been the first major tipping point towards Revolution as this was very much opposed by most of the colonists, and some even went as far as to boycott British goods. And there were those who went farther still: On the unusually cold day of March 5, 1770, a large mob of people assembled around a small group of British soldiers. Most threw only snowballs, though some also included rocks and other debris. At one point, one of the soldiers fell after being clubbed. After that, all but one of them began to fire into the crowd; three men died immediately, though two lingered on for a little while before dying afterwards. This event came to be remembered as the 'Boston Massacre' and is commonly accepted as one of the key catalysts for the Revolution later that decade.
By this time, the relationship between Britain and the colonies, New England in particular, had begun to take a rapidly downward spiral. The Gaspee Affair in June 1772 was just one more nail in the coffin; the British warship of that name had been enforcing the increasingly unpopular trade acts and was targeted for destruction by members of the new Patriot movement such as John Brown. Samuel Adams, another man who was to be instrumental in the Revolution, began to set up networks across all the colonies, laying down the first foundations of the rebel network. Thomas Jefferson, meanwhile, collaborating with his old friend Patrick Henry, helped to set up the brand-new Virginia Committee of Correspondence that year; both men were to be amongst its first members. These committees would later become the leaders in the war effort, but at the moment, they mainly focused on civilian matters.

To make matters more embarrassing for the British, in early 1773, someone was able to publish a series of private letters by and to Mass. Governor Thomas Hutchinson, in which he called for the rolling back and abridgement of colonial rights, and Lt. Gov. Andrew Oliver expressed his wishes for the direct payment of colonial officials, amongst other things. This caused a major uproar amongst the colonists, and is believed to have brought the once pro-compromise Benjamin Franklin firmly to their side.

And, before the year was to end, the strangest incident yet would occur at Boston Harbor. On the 16th of December, Samuel Adams and a group of his fellows decided to make a rather unique statement when they boarded several unguarded ships of the British East India Company and dumped over £10,000 worth of tea(About $1 million dollars today! Or around £472,000 in British pounds, by 1969 exchange rates.)into the harbor. This peculiar event was to become popularly known as the Boston Tea Party, and to this day, remains a significant part of North American political lore from Panama to Alaska and Hawaii to Newfoundland. As a side note, in 1774, the Quebec Act extended that colony's boundaries all the way to the Ohio River; this act, ironically, proved to be of little importance to the 13 colonies, whose inhabitants were preparing for all out war.

But more importantly, also in 1774, The British government then passed the Intolerable Acts, as they were known, as a response to events they feared were inevitable. They were as follows:

The Massachusetts Government Act-Altered the colony's charter and restricted town meetings.
The Administration of Justice Act-Any British soldier accused of a crime, any crime, was to be extradited to Britain instead of being tried in the colonies.
The Boston Port Act-Closed the port of Boston until the British government was compensated for goods lost to vandalism, especially tea ruined by the Boston Tea Party incident.
The Quartering Act-Perhaps the most offensive law of all; it allowed the royal governors to house soldiers in the homes of any citizen without requiring the permission of the home owner.

This was perhaps the final nail in the coffin of British rule over the colonies as it had been known.

At this point, every one of the colonies had a Committee, and around 7-8 thousand patriots served on them at their peak-Loyalists, however, were completely excluded.
When the First Continental Congress decided to lead a boycott on British goods, the Committees on both the colonial and local levels took charge of this immediately and began to examine merchant records and publishing the names of those who attempted to bypass the Revolutionaries' boycott. They promoted home manufacturing and encouraged Americans to avoid luxuries and to lead more modest lives whenever they could. They also set up some of the world's first modern espionage networks to not only identify elements who might become disloyal but also to keep a close eye on the whereabouts and dealings of royal officials. They were able to displace royal officials and topple the entire imperial system in each colony and even supervised the elections of the first provincial conventions in late 1774
and early 1775. Several of the colonies, starting with Massachusetts, also created Provincial Congresses in 1774, and this was the founding keystone for the establishment of the First Continental Congress.
By 1775, they had gained significant amounts of influence over the public life of the average American and were ready to take further steps to success. That opprotunity was to come far earlier than expected....

On April 19, 1775, British authorities received word that a number of rebels had convened in the small town of Concord, Mass., and sent about 1,000 troops to arrest the revolutionaries and confiscate their arms and other equipment. They were instead visited with gunfire from the resisting Americans and were forced to retreat, firing the first shots of the Revolutionary War, and setting the stage for events to come. By the start of July, 1776, no British official retained any tangible control over any part of the 13 colonies, none whatsoever, and on July 2nd, Thomas Jefferson began to draft the very first portions of the Declaration of Independence. Two days later, on the 4th, it had been completed and was approved.

The British had suffered many losses during the following 12 months, and despite some victories, such as the Battle of Brooklyn, many in London soon began to question the validity of the continuation of the war. However, though, one key event began to turn things around for the British.

In July 1777, an American scout, known later as “John Jackson(an assumed name)”, reported that British General John Burgoyne had been trapped in northern New York awaiting reinforcements from other parts of the province, and from neighboring colonies. Burgoyne had been stuck in the area since the middle of June, and had been unable to receive promised help from William Howe, who had instead been ordered to retake Philadelphia. The commanding general of U.S. forces in New York, Philip Schuyler, considered the plan for a few days. He began to hope that by routing Burgoyne, the revolutionaries could gain much-needed advantages over the British, and his fellow general, Horatio Gates, went ever further and hoped that this might help to put an early end to the war, at least in New York, if not the whole country, though he also suggested that they wait for more men and supplies to arrive. After some consideration, Schuyler gave the green light on July 14th, despite Gates's opposition. Five days later, a small force of Patriots arrived at Burgoyne's location and attacked his men, just as they had reached the Hudson River about 25 miles south of Fort Ticonderoga...

Hope you like the preview. Any suggestions, constructive criticism, etc. are welcome. :)
 
FWoAN Revisited isn't dead, fellas, just hibernating.

I admit, you have literally sparked my interest.

Thanks a lot and I'm terribly sorry about the lack of progress as of late.

Here's another portion of Chapter 1, which I do hope will revive some interest in the TL.

Burgoyne's men were badly battered by the attack, and he made the decision to retreat; his companion General Simon Fraser, however, had been cut down by an American bullet late on the evening of the 21st, during a desperate last-minute attempt to rout the rebels, though he would survive his wounds.
The revolutionaries had become optimistic, but General Schuyler had made a couple of very unfortunate mistakes, however; not only had he not sent enough men, but also, the revolutionaries realized they had only brought enough ammunition for a few days' worth of battle, and hadn't taken into account possible future conflicts. The General's mistakes would came back to hurt them on the 25th, when Baron von Riedesel, formerly the rear flank commander, drove the surviving portions of Burgoyne's army and some volunteers back into the area, dispatching a number of the remaining of the rebels before moving back north to recapture Fort Ticonderoga.[FN4] Schuyler had been injured during the attack and partly thanks to this, gave full command of the army to General Gates on August 10th .

Gates quickly realized that he needed to replenish his ranks with fresh blood, so in later in August, he requested that General Washington send some aid his way. Washington obliged and did just that; on August 26th, both Major Generals Benedict Arnold, and Benjamin Lincoln, a Massachusetts native well-respected by the Yankee militias, reported to their new post in what is now northern Rensselaer County. Along with them came about 1,250 men, 750 from Israel Putnam's forces stationed in the highlands of New York, and 500 specially trained riflemen, mainly from Pennsylvania, Maryland, and Virginia, from Daniel Morgan's army, who had been chosen for their sharpshooting abilities. After two weeks of preparation, General Gates's army began to move northward on the morning of September 7th.

Burgoyne, meanwhile, had lost support from his Indian allies, and was deprived of reliable reports on the American position, partly thanks to this. On September 17, the Royal Army had come just a few miles north of Saratoga, about 8 miles north of the American defensive line, and a number of small skirmishes occurred between Burgoyne's men and some of the American scouting parties.[FN5]

Back in the American camp, General Arnold had returned from Fort Stanwix the following day. Gates and Arnold, while not always in agreement with each other, had been on reasonably decent terms with on another, even taking their notable egos into account. Arnold, however, had begun to annoy Gates with his increasing preference, and hiring of, staff officers friendly to Schuyler, which dragged him into the escalating feud between the other two Generals. The arguments would not yet reach a boiling point for some time, but the events of the 18th would contribute to the problem.
On the 19th, General Gates assumed control of the right flank of the army, while Arnold was assigned to the left; the latter position had originally been taken by General Lincoln, but he had been detached the previous month and was sent to distract some of the British positions behind Burgoyne and his men.[FN6]

Both sides understood the importance of the Americans' left flank, due to the fact that it was largely situatied on hilly terrain, which could prove significantly advantageous. On the morning of the 20th,
Burgoyne ordered three of his companies to advance to meet the Americans. Baron Von Riedesel
led the left column consisting of German soldiers and the 47th Foot Regiment, along with artillery on the road alongside the left bank of the Hudson; General James Inglis Hamilton was the commander of the center column, containing the 9th, 20th, 21st, and 62nd Regiments which would be headed towards the hills; and General Simon Fraser, recently having recuperated from his July battle wounds, was to lead the right flank with the 24th Regiment and some light infantry and grenadier companies, with the aim of turning the American left flank by maneuvering through the high ground to the north and west of the Bemis Heights area.
The American General Benedict Arnold had come to realize that the British might attempt to outflank the Revolutionaries' left column, so he requested that General Gates allow him to move his forces from the hills to the forest, to try and repel any such British manuever, and where the Americans would be at an advantage. Gates, though expecting mainly a full frontal assault, reluctantly agreed to this, and assigned a small reconnaissance team headed by Daniel Morgan and Henry Dearborn, to intercept the incoming British. When they arrived, only Hamilton's army had reached them and only a few of them were advancing forward. Colonel Morgan ordered his men to pick off the advancing soldiers, and they did so with rather impressive accuracy. Unfortunately, however, just as the first group of British soldiers had been picked off, a couple of Morgan's men had been spotted by a British scout and they were now forced to battle the survivors. The Colonel ordered two of his men to send for reinforcements while they defended their position. Amazingly, Morgan's company was able to handle them with little recourse, and they began to believe that they had won an easy victory. Unfortunately, however, they were to learn otherwise just as their reinforcements had arrived; it turns out that Hamilton's supposed mistake was actually a clever ruse(though it hadn't worked out quite as well as planned), for right after the American reinforcements arrived, so did rest of Burgoyne's army.

The Americans spent three long, desperate days trying to fend off the much larger Burgoyne contingent and had to rely on all sorts of guerilla tactics to hold their position. General Gates requested urgent assistance from several other companies, but only Enoch Poor's men and the 1st Canadian Regiment made it to the scene; all the others were either still grouping up, or engaged elsewhere.

The battle itself largely alternated between constant and intense combat, sometimes close-quarters at that, and stillness and relative tranquility. As hopeless as it may have seemed for the Americans, Morgan's men did manage to effectively snipe many British officers and artillerymen, and occasionally even managed to requisition a few of the field pieces, though they were usually taken back relatively quickly.

Confusion also reigned through much of the fracas; there were various reports that were often hard to confirm; one American actually thought that he had shot General Burgoyne, only to discover that only a trusted aide of his had been the real victim. On the other side, the captain of a British artillery company claimed to have killed Benedict Arnold, although Arnold was actually nowhere near the encampment that was levelled. There were also times where it seemed like neither side could gain any real traction at all.

On the other hand, there were moments in which it seemed the battle might end: Burgoyne had actually considered backing down and going back to camp after the Americans nearly broke through the line and inflicted dozens upon dozens of casualties on the 22nd. The line held, however, due to the efforts of General Philips and the American offensive began to fall apart and they once again found themselves on the defensive as the British began to push them back.

After this, the Patriots suffered setback after setback; Daniel Morgan was felled by a British bullet on the afternoon of the 23rd, and his company began to fall apart without their leader. They were only propped up by the initiative of Israel Putnam, who quickly seized control of the situation and reorganized them. The desperate Americans, under the orders of General Gates, began an evasive manuever, moving their positions frequently in an effort to hold off for as long as possible. While this frustrated Burgoyne and his men, it was becoming clear that the British were winning the fight, and the General ordered his men onwards to secure their victory. Colonel Morgan wasn't to be the last American leader to fall; Enoch Poor followed him in death on the 24th, his tent blown to bits by a Royalist artillery shell.

Horatio Gates and the other American generals faced a very difficult decision at the end of the day: either surrender or keep on fighting, to the last man if necessary. Benjamin Lincoln suggested that they begin what is now called a 'fighting retreat', that is, continue engaging the British as much as possible while retreating to a safer distance. After some debate, they agreed to do so, though not without some dissent. That afternoon, the long and difficult retreat began; the Americans sought to flee down the Hudson River, though some companies would go off in other directions as well, to prevent a total loss of manpower, and in hopes of continuing the campaign in some form; There were over 200 more American soldiers who wouldn't survive the night; General Abraham Ten Broeck was amongst them, shot by one of Burgoyne's elites and protected by an aide until his final breath. But they did get a few parting shots; Baron von Riedesel was killed by an American sniper, possibly Timothy Murphy, if the 1865 account by William Tennyson is to be believed.[FN7]

The Americans regrouped about 25 miles south of the battle site. Once at their destination, Gates again sent for assistance. Finally, on the 26th, the reinforcements that Gates had long been waiting for had at last come to him, along with several more volunteer units from New Jersey, New York, Massachusetts(including the Maine district), and Connecticut, as well as a few from the fledgling Vermont Republic[FN8], although by this time, it was too late to prevent the British from securing the Saratoga area and surrounding environs. Even so, Gates decided that he would not take a defeat sitting down if it could be helped, and later in the day, he gathered all the other generals to discuss a final plan of action before either retaking Saratoga or permanently retreating southwards further into downstate New York for the time being.

However, Gates noticed that one general was missing; Benedict Arnold had been nowhere in sight since the morning and no-one knew where he had gone. Gates sent for a scout to find him, and bring him back, if possible. Gates then continued the meeting and ultimately, it was decided that one last rush to Saratoga was to be in order. Early the next morning, Gates's scout came back with the final news on Benedict Arnold: He was alive, and well, in fact. But he hadn't been kidnapped as some speculated; the truth of the matter was, General Arnold had actually traveled to Saratoga County of his own free will and was negotiating his surrender with Burgoyne himself! The news proved to be a blow to the Patriots, but even so, he had been one of their more valuable generals; Benjamin Lincoln suggested that they try to retrieve Arnold, alive, from the British camp somehow while they fought Burgoyne's men.
There was some discussion, but ultimately, it was agreed that they would try to recapture Saratoga one last time.

While the Americans had been somewhat better off than in the first battle, they had perhaps no more than 4,000 troops ready for deployment, and at least 1,500 of them had been the volunteer reinforcements from New England as well as New York and New Jersey; losses from the first battle had been severe. General Gates decided to try a surprise attack by a few forward companies on the British left flank, distracting them long enough to bring in some of their own field pieces to attack both the right and center positions. Because Arnold was now indisposed, Gates took over the left wing himself, while Ebenezer Learned commanded the central position and Benjamin Lincoln the right wing. Over the next week, 800 more men joined the ranks of the Patriots, and by October 3rd, they were ready to strike.

The British under Burgoyne, though they too, had taken a good thrashing at the hands of the determined Patriots, now had 10,000 men at their command, and had both manpower and experience to their advantage. Their only problem was that they had gotten somewhat complacent in the days after the last battle and so many of them were unprepared for yet another battle.

The Patriots left their post between 9:30 and 10 am to advance to Burgoyne's encampment, stopping about a mile south of it. At around 2 pm, after one last respite, they charged forward; Gates ordered all companies to open fire the minute they saw British men. Burgoyne's men had been very much caught off guard and had been forced to ready themselves in a hurry. But when they did, the Americans once again found themselves in deep trouble. They were outnumbered and outgunned, but even so, the Patriots fought like they'd never done before. Snipers hounded the Redcoats' left flank while artillery pieces continually assaulted the middle and right flanks; one shell landed right in front of General Williams, killing him and several regulars right next to him. Major Acland, leading the grenadiers, lost both of his kneecaps to an American sniper.

As the intense battle continued through the 4th, though, the Americans were still unable to gain a permanent advantage over the British, and before the end, Israel Putnam would lose his life to a British sniper bullet, and Benjamin Lincoln was severely injured by an artillery shell, that nearly cost him his right leg.

Despite their valiant efforts, the Patriots lost the Second Battle of Saratoga. They had lost over 1,600 men and two of their finest generals, and most of Gates' surviving men were in no shape, or mood to fight any longer. Gates himself was captured late that evening, but many of his men were able to take to the hills to the northwest before then.....including one John Brown[FN9].

The British victory, however, had not been without its price: 2,800 of the Redcoats had died, and several of Burgoyne's generals had been killed by Americans in various ways. Ironically enough, Simon Fraser, who had nearly perished during the July skirmish at Ticonderoga, was one of the few British leaders to survive other than Burgoyne himself, along with Heinrich von Breymann, Lord Balcarres, and a few others. A Pyrrhic victory, indeed...

Once the news of the Patriots' defeat at Saratoga reached Europe, France's King Louis XVI, who had reluctantly considered giving support to the Americans(but only after constant clamoring from the people), decided against it, believing their cause to be lost. And in Britain, King George III threw a lavish party in Westminster Hall celebrating the Redcoat victory, believing that his troubles would soon be over. Otherwise, the international reaction was largely indifferent; America was but just one part of a very large and expansive world, and an insignificant one at that, in the eyes of many.

However, though, the war wasn't won yet, far from it in fact. In fact, the Americans, though starting to become increasingly disorganized, were only just beginning to fight; the amount of guerilla tactics used by the Americans multiplied by ten fold....
 
Interesting. From the osunds of it, North America could very well end being as bad as Ireland for the British despite winning the war(in terms of rebellions and discontent)
 
A few thoughts:

The *US eventually becomes independent with *Mexican help, which the *Mexicans eventually come to regret...(It's no Ireland: too big, too far away. Unless the British can strike a working deal with the elites, they will lose it sooner or later, "later" probably meaning "no later than mid-century", even sans Mexican involvement).

Slavery till 1915 doesn't necessarily mean that *Mexico won't be democratic in the 1970s. Since British abolitionism probably is one of the drivers of *American discontent with British rule, the emergent *United States also probably holds onto its slaves longer than OTL. (BTW, do you recall how Sobel dealt with the slavery problem in the CSA? IIRC he kinda handwaved it, but my memories may be playing me false).

I'd think the *Mexicans would be likely to expand into Honduras, etc. rather than keeping that area as a puppet and invading Alaska of all places. (Heck, OTL Americans tried filibustering the area in spite of the sizeable body of water in the way...) More involvement in South America as the ruling classes Hispanicize over time.

Bruce
 
Interesting. From the osunds of it, North America could very well end being as bad as Ireland for the British despite winning the war(in terms of rebellions and discontent)

Possibly. And there will certainly be some discontent for a long time to come, especially amongst Yankees in the short term. How bad could it get? Well, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. :)

A few thoughts:

The *US eventually becomes independent with *Mexican help, which the *Mexicans eventually come to regret...(It's no Ireland: too big, too far away. Unless the British can strike a working deal with the elites, they will lose it sooner or later, "later" probably meaning "no later than mid-century", even sans Mexican involvement).

Slavery till 1915 doesn't necessarily mean that *Mexico won't be democratic in the 1970s. Since British abolitionism probably is one of the drivers of *American discontent with British rule, the emergent *United States also probably holds onto its slaves longer than OTL. (BTW, do you recall how Sobel dealt with the slavery problem in the CSA? IIRC he kinda handwaved it, but my memories may be playing me false).

I'd think the *Mexicans would be likely to expand into Honduras, etc. rather than keeping that area as a puppet and invading Alaska of all places. (Heck, OTL Americans tried filibustering the area in spite of the sizeable body of water in the way...) More involvement in South America as the ruling classes Hispanicize over time.

Bruce

Hello, Bruce, glad to see you onboard! I did have something like that in mind. I don't think we'll be seeing OTL's U.S. come back to life, to be honest, but there certainly will be a few attempts at secession, perhaps one or two of which could prove damaging to the C.N.A. in the short term.

I can also tell you that Mexico will definitely expand southwards as well. How low can they go? Wait and see. :D

TBH, I can't recall what Sobel did with the C.S.A., either. But I can say this: slavery in Mexico will end significantly earlier than 1915. ;)
 
Hello, Bruce, glad to see you onboard! I did have something like that in mind. I don't think we'll be seeing OTL's U.S. come back to life, to be honest, but there certainly will be a few attempts at secession, perhaps one or two of which could prove damaging to the C.N.A. in the short term.


Hm? Don't quite understand you here: are you saying that the Brits manage to hold onto north America? I wasn't saying we would get the US of OTL: we would get something rather nastier. Possibly the Brits manage to hold onto more than they did OTL, but the whole thing? Not unless they come to some sort of mutually acceptable agreement with the local elites, which gives you Mega British Empire, which I would suppose is not what you are going for.

I can also tell you that Mexico will definitely expand southwards as well. How low can they go? Wait and see. :D


Echoes of Decades of Darkness... :D


Bruce
 
Hm? Don't quite understand you here: are you saying that the Brits manage to hold onto north America?

Yeah, that's what I've gone with, pretty much. :)

I wasn't saying we would get the US of OTL: we would get something rather nastier.

Possibly the Brits manage to hold onto more than they did OTL, but the whole thing? Not unless they come to some sort of mutually acceptable agreement with the local elites, which gives you Mega British Empire, which I would suppose is not what you are going for.

I had the Galloway Plan in mind while fleshing out the first years after the war. I can say though, that there will have to be a fair number of concessions made to both the Southerners and the Yankees.......

Echoes of Decades of Darkness... :D

*chuckle* :p:) TBH, though, I didn't quite have DoD's nuttiness in mind when it came to expansion and I've been planning this for a while anyhow. I can tell you this, though: Remember Guatemala from "For All Nails"? You may recall that it stayed independent..... but there? Quite a different story. :D
 
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