For the Ameriwankers

1. Stick to the plan

By 1812 Napoleon has spread french rule across most of western Europe. The only real threat remaining is Great Britain the continual thorn in Napoleon's side. Unable to contend with Britain by sea or break the naval blockade of Europe, Napoleon has enacted the Blocus Continental. It is an ambitious large scale trade embargo against British trade since 1806.

It seems to be working against the British as it should, but it has its negative effects on other European powers. In particular Russia under Alexander I was feeling the strain. Russia was effectively blocked from naval trading through the Baltic sea where British ships lay waiting or through the Dardanelles controlled by Russia's enemy the Ottoman Empire.

Joseph Bonaparte king of Spain, although his claim is tenuous, is the one to inadvertently suggest a solution to his younger brother the Emperor. In a letter he writes his brother:

"... indeed if we were campaigning for Alexander of Russia we might push the ottomans to the Mediterranean so that we might make ports in Greece. Regrettably control of the strait accessing the sea remains with enemy naval commanders..."

The strait to which Joseph had referred was the strait of Gibraltar that was hounded by British ships but to Napoleon it meant the Dardanelles and the Bosphoros. Joseph had given his brother the idea of how to break British naval superiority, if just for a while. The letter inspired Napoleon to impose the Treaty of Bucharest 1811. Napoleon convinced Mahmud II to open his ports and for Alexander would be given Bessarabia but have to cede territory in Transcaucasia.

This was only the first half of the solution, Napoleon still needed proper control in Spain to ensure the opening of Gibraltar and to do that he needed the British out of Iberia. Gathering up forces from all over the empire and with his allies, Francis of Austria, Frederick William III of Prussia and Alexander of Russia, Napoleon assembled the Grande Armée. The force was composed of 725,000 men, the largest standing force ever assembled in Europe up to that point. Napoleon directed his forces at Lisbon. The Anglo-Portuguese forces and the Spanish resistance would harass him no more.

People would write that the buildings shook as the Grande Armée marched through Spain. The siege of Cadiz was broken in two days, the Spanish resistance was broken. Portugal began to fall to the Napoleon as his army finally pushed into the lines of Torres Vedras, a series of 126 forts and redoubts under the command of Arthur Wellesly. Upon his arrival Napoleon realized the sheer magnitude of his task, Andre Massena, one of Napoleon's marshals of the empire, had even been pushed back in 1811. The logistical strain was beginning to show as the Portuguese had employed a scorched earth policy.

Using the grand mortars that had enjoyed some success at the siege of Cadiz, Napoleon endeavored to test the forts and the resolve of the Anglo-Portuguese army. After a month of solid bombardment with mortar and cannon the Grande Armée broke the first line. The city of Lisbon fell three weeks after, most of the defending army retreated to London on British ships

Iberia was securely under french rule and the trade embargo against the UK was now complete. European ships could access the trade routes through the Mediterranean but still had to contend with a vastly powerful British navy. Napoleon had been unable to compete at sea for far too long and had devised a counter strategy. Since the treaty of Bucharest 1812 Napoleon commissioned his allies for ships, building ships, buying existing ships, pressing a merchant navy into service. Napoleon was determined to have a Navy to push through the British lines.

He got his wish in the waning months of 1813 when James Madison, the president of the United States, made two important deliveries. Six frigates to the French and A declaration of war to the British. The frigates, four newly constructed and two already afloat, joined the french allied fleet with contributions from Russia, Austria, Prussia and even Ottoman vessels. Meanwhile the Grande Armée had made its way into Boulogne, Bruges and Montreuil to make preperations to cross the channel on the Flottille de Boulogne a large fleet of small gunboats designed for this purpose early in the french revolution.

As the French made preparations to sail on Great Britain so did the Americans make preparations to march on British North America.
 

Seldrin

Banned
Needs more detail, probably a better title too. That said, it's not a bad effort for a first timer, and a hell of a lot better than when I tried to do a TL but I think you need to include a step-by-step progression of the personal and political reasons for each new development after the POD. Right now, after seeing the Russians straight up turn sides after being allowed to access the Bosporus by the Ottomans, I'm questioning the exact details of how they managed to do this.

Other than that, I don't think it's a POD I've seen before and it isn't outside the realms of possibility, so I'd like to see a TL continue if it had a little more detail.
 

Dirk_Pitt

Banned
So the PoD here is that Nappy finds a solution to keep Russia happy therefore not requiring an invasion? Cool.

My problem is Nappy's plan to deal with the Royal Navy.

Relying on the USN? Really? I'm an American, come from a family of sailors and even I'll admit that in 1812 the USN was a standing joke. Even the 6 frigates you gave them won't even scratch the Royal Navy.

Remember the Napoleonic Era was the was the time where the Royal Navy was at its Peak.
 
Prussia and Austria both have no navy at all at this time.

The British control the Baltic sea, confining the Russian navy to port there. They cannot get out to join the assault.

Most of the Russian navy is either in French hands a Corfu at this time, or interned in Portsmouth or Lissabon - the British will not let the French nor the Russians have the ships they control.

The Russians have a grand total of 10 ships of the line in the Black Sea 1812, a force the British can easily handle with their Mediterranean squadron based off Malta.

While the French were building a lot of ships, there were none that had an experienced crew. Even if Napoleon somehow managed to move all the ships he is building all over Europe to Spain without the Royal Navy intercepting and capturing them on the way, they are still not going to be strong enough to face the Royal Navy.
 
Marching an army of 725'000 men into Spain? Have you done away with their (& the horses of their cavalry & artillery's) needs for food & drink?
 
Nappy had an Army of Liches!

That would be very epic.

I will take this criticism as constructive and make some adjustments but I believe this POD can be viable provided Nappy gets his ships.

Marching an army of 725'000 men into Spain? Have you done away with their (& the horses of their cavalry & artillery's) needs for food & drink?

Did Napoleon do away with logistical needs when marching them into Russia?
 
Did Napoleon do away with logistical needs when marching them into Russia?

He thought he did :p

Although to be fair, while the army size would probably more feasible if it was around half that and still be more than enough to do the job, marching from the Pyrenees to Lisbon isn't the same logistical nightmare that is marching from Warsaw to Moscow.
 
Did Napoleon do away with logistical needs when marching them into Russia?
Wasn't there more food available locally (to be seized) in western Russia than there would have been in Spain, at least until the scorched-earth policy & winter started taking effect?


Napoleon had been unable to compete at sea for far too long and had devised a counter strategy. Since the treaty of Bucharest 1812 Napoleon commissioned his allies for ships, building ships, buying existing ships, pressing a merchant navy into service. Napoleon was determined to have a Navy to push through the British lines.
France can't even come close to outbuilding Britain: Not enough docks, trained shipwrights & sailmakers & so on, or stockpiled materials... and remember that he'd need to reallocate reosources for making all of the extra guns needed for arming those ships, too.
And with Dutch fleet smashed at Camperdown, and the Danes at Copenhagen (which was the main reason for Britain's attack there), there aren't any good fleets left for [relatively] quick expansion amongst his allies, either.


And wouldn't Napoleon be rather wary about marching large sections of the Austrian, Prussian, & Russian, armies through France in order to get them into Spain? After all, what if they have secret orders to turn on him once they've got that far?
 
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Oh, the French can outbuild the British on ships of the line and frigates - and they can arm them. After all they control Denmark's, Spain's, France's, Venice's and the Netherland's building capacity.

They just can't get them to one place nor can they man them with sailors who actually know how to handle a ship of the line.

The Austrians captured 10 ships of the line (4 complete and 6 still under construction), 8 frigates (3 complete and 5 still under construction) and a number of smaller vessels in Venice

There were a lot of 74s built all over Europe for Napoleon after Trafalgar. None ever took sail for France, even if many were completed.

The same problem that plagued the Franco-Spanish fleet before Trafalgar plagues any attempt at gathering a new French navy.

The Royal Navy is cruising outside all ports with known French fleet assets. The French fleet is dispersed, under-manned and above all completely without training and experience. You cannot learn how to handle a ship of the line in port. You cannot learn formation sailing and line manouvre in port.
 
So the PoD here is that Nappy finds a solution to keep Russia happy therefore not requiring an invasion? Cool.

My problem is Nappy's plan to deal with the Royal Navy.

Relying on the USN? Really? I'm an American, come from a family of sailors and even I'll admit that in 1812 the USN was a standing joke. Even the 6 frigates you gave them won't even scratch the Royal Navy.

Remember the Napoleonic Era was the was the time where the Royal Navy was at its Peak.

The US navy was very small - it handled excellent frigates competently and was probably the best regarded US service in other parts of the world. But even to nations such as Sweden and Denmark the US navy was a fly that could be swatted quickly.
 
Oh, the French can outbuild the British on ships of the line and frigates - and they can arm them. After all they control Denmark's, Spain's, France's, Venice's and the Netherland's building capacity.
I was talking about just France itself (and, admittedly, forgetting that it had actually absorbed the Netherlands), hence the separate references to the Dutch & Danes. Okay, I agree that they could have built some ships elsewhere too, but even so I'd like to see the actual figures on dockyard capacity before agreeing that they could have outbuilt the RN...
And remember that their control of the Spanish shipyards weakened after the imposition of King Joseph and the uprisings against him, even leaving aside the fact that the Spanish actually built a significant proportion (one non-fiction book that I've read says c. 1/3) of their ships at Havana -- using mahoghany instead of oak -- rather than in Spain itself and that the RN would have made bringing ships from there back to Europe rather difficult.

They just can't get them to one place nor can they man them with sailors who actually know how to handle a ship of the line.
Agreed.

The Austrians captured 10 ships of the line (4 complete and 6 still under construction), 8 frigates (3 complete and 5 still under construction) and a number of smaller vessels in Venice

There were a lot of 74s built all over Europe for Napoleon after Trafalgar. None ever took sail for France, even if many were completed.
Now, that I either hadn't ever known before or had forgottten. Thank you for the information.

The same problem that plagued the Franco-Spanish fleet before Trafalgar plagues any attempt at gathering a new French navy.

The Royal Navy is cruising outside all ports with known French fleet assets. The French fleet is dispersed, under-manned and above all completely without training and experience. You cannot learn how to handle a ship of the line in port. You cannot learn formation sailing and line manouvre in port.
Agreed.
 
I can add that it was after the 7-month siege in April 1814 that the Austrians captured the ships being built for France in Venice.

The Arsenal might have seen better days, but it was still very productive.

And it is after the 1797 plundering of the Arsenal, in which the French took the best and most of the tools and building materials and supplies for their own navy.

Venice became part of the Italian Kingdom 1805, and all naval assets had been given to the French before that, so the 10 ships of the line and 8 frigates were built 1805-1814.

What navies are not bottled up at this time?

6 American frigates, 10 Russian ships of the line in the Black Sea. The Ottomans might, with some help, field 7 ships of the line and 3 frigates, plus another 4-5 Egyptian frigates (most of these are in the Red Sea at the time, though). Sweden has 13 ships of the line and 10 frigates.
 
What navies are not bottled up at this time?

6 American frigates, 10 Russian ships of the line in the Black Sea. The Ottomans might, with some help, field 7 ships of the line and 3 frigates, plus another 4-5 Egyptian frigates (most of these are in the Red Sea at the time, though). Sweden has 13 ships of the line and 10 frigates.
How useable would their design let the Swedish ships be outside the Baltic?
 
I just lost a very long post. Shit fuck and hell.

Sweden had 13 ships of the line and 14 frigates available. None were copper-bottomed, but the ships built by af Chapman (9 ships of the line and 7 frigates) were considered excellent sailers and very stiff, rolling a max of 10 degrees at 6-7 meters per second and full sails.

The gunports were high above the water due to the ships being large two-deckers. They carried 32pdrs on the lower deck and 24pdrs on the upper deck. The frigates carried 24pdrs.
 
Here's a list that I have managed to scrounge together for the Swedish navy 1812.

Ship of the Line
Name Displacement Armament Comissioned
HMS Göta Lejon 2070 74 guns (28x24pdr, 26x18pdr, 20x6pdr) 1746
HMS Prins Fredrik Adolf 2045 68 guns (24x24pdr, 26x18pdr, 14x8pdr) 1774
HMS Konung Adolf Fredrik 2210 70 guns (26x36pdr, 28x24pdr, 16x8pdr) 1775
HMS Konung Gustaf III 2370 70 guns (26x36pdr, 28x24pdr, 16x8pdr) 1777
HMS Wasa 60 guns (26x36pdr, 26x24pdr, 8x6pdr) 1778
HMS Fäderneslandet 1925 62 guns (26x36pdr, 28x24pdr, 8x6pdr) 1783
HMS Äran 1925 62 guns (26x36pdr, 28x24pdr, 8x6pdr) 1784
HMS Försiktigheten 1925 62 guns (26x36pdr, 28x24pdr, 8x6pdr) 1784
HMS Dristigheten 1925 62 guns (26x36pdr, 28x24pdr, 8x6pdr) 1785
HMS Manligheten 1925 62 guns (26x36pdr, 28x24pdr, 8x6pdr) 1785
HMS Tapperheten 1925 62 guns (26x36pdr, 28x24pdr, 8x6pdr) 1785
HMS Vladislaff 76 guns (28x24pdr, 28x18pdr, 20x6pdr) 1784 (captured from the Russians 1788)
HMS Gustaf den Store 2680 78 guns (30x36pdr, 30x24pdr, 16x12pdr, 2x24pdr carronades) 1799

HMS Jarramas 630 34 guns (22x12pdr, 12x4pdr) 1759
HMS af Trolle 690 24 guns (24x12pdr) 1767
HMS Hector 24 guns 1781 (captured from the Russians 1788)
HMS Wictoria 1782
HMS Fröja 1345 40 guns (26x24pdr, 14x6pdr) 1784
HMS Theris 1345 40 guns (26x24pdr, 14x6pdr) 1784
HMS Camilla 1345 40 guns (26x24pdr, 14x6pdr) 1784
HMS Galathea 1345 40 guns (26x24pdr, 14x6pdr) 1785
HMS Eurydice 1345 40 guns (26x24pdr, 14x6pdr) 1785
HMS Iphigenie 1345 40 guns (26x24pdr, 14x6pdr) 1785
HMS Katarina 38 guns (2x24pdr, 20x 18pdr, 2x12pdr, 14x6pdr) 1789 (captured from the Russians 1790)
HMS Konstantin 38 guns (2x24pdr, 20x 18pdr, 2x12pdr, 14x6pdr) 1789 (captured from the Russians 1790)
HMS Alexander 38 guns (2x24pdr, 20x 18pdr, 2x12pdr, 14x6pdr) 1789 (captured from the Russians 1790)
HMS af Chapman 1350 40 guns (26x24pdr, 14x8pdr) 1803
HMS Fredrika 24 guns (22x12pdr, 2x8pdr) 1809
HMS Erik Segersäll 32 guns (22x36pdr, 10x24pdr) 1809

13 ships of the line and 16 frigates, although I am not certain on HMS Wictoria and the captured Russian ones being in fighting order.

The 40 gun frigates were of af Chapman's design and built like the modern US frigates and to be able to stand in the line of battle in the Baltic (where three-deckers and guns above 24pdr were rare).
 
Wasn't there more food available locally (to be seized) in western Russia than there would have been in Spain, at least until the scorched-earth policy & winter started taking effect?


Half a million men eat a lot. The Grande Armee lost half it's strength to desertion on the way to Borodino, during the summer. It would be the same in Spain, maybe worse. Napoleon would get to Torres Vedras with 150k. It might be enough, it might not, but if he does take Lisbon, he would have to leave most of it there to stop Wellington from coming back almost immediately. Iberia is a dead end for France, and will eat the Grande Armee just like Russia did.
 
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