For All Mankind (AH Tv series at Apple TV)

[Polish Eagle]

OTL Shuttle? OTL Shuttle...to the Moon? Why? Why any of this?

Could be just some kind of art shot, like that scene in ‘From the Earth to the Moon’ where the first episode closes on Gemini-Agena pointed at the Moon while Buzz Aldrin straddles it. Payload bay doors are closed in the shot, so it might be during a launch.

Still begs the question of ‘why.’ We saw Sea Dragon, so why would the US develop both the OTL Shuttle and SD?

Hate to say it (since season 1, though flawed, had so much potential), but it looks like they’re going to favor geopolitical tensions over any kind of realistic space development.

EDIT: I know that describes a lot of season 1 too, but consider the tone shift—we’ve gone from Gene Kranz saying ‘Moon, Mars, asteroids, stars, etc’ to ‘astronauts with M4 rifles for some stupid reason.’

 

[Expat]

Watched season 1 three times through, loved it. Cutting this trailer, it sort of feels like they don't want people like me coming back? Hopefully, it's just a badly-cut trailer. I'm not really interested in rifles on the moon? Unless they're testing them as some sort of short-range rearward propulsion system.

 

[Bbone91]

I’m not as suprised by the idea of Marines on the moon. From what it was implied in the first season, the military had a pretty strong desire to have a functioning military outpost on the moon, if only because they were afraid that the Russians would put a military base on the moon. I get the feeling that there was no treaty against militarizing outer space ittl.

 

[JuliantheUnknown]

I think people are being too pessimistic already based on one trailer - I don't know it seems to be a mood on this board that when a piece of news comes out that isn't 100% within line, we all start soothsaying doom. We all enjoyed the first season and we should wait for more.

Plus, the military part of it does make sense - that was baked into the first season as well. And it makes sense that when cutting together a trailer, they would cut together the "sexiest" parts.

 

[jolou]

Maybe the marines thing is a red-herring. It could be an episode that escalade the Cold War, nearly provoke World War III and end up getting Reagan out of the windows with at the same time creating the treaty against militarizing outer space

 

[Athelstane]

I get the feeling that there was no treaty against militarizing outer space ittl.

Either that, or the US and USSR withdrew from the Outer Space Treaty. Which is not impossible, but seems less likely than it never being signed in the first place.

 

[Michel Van]

OTL Shuttle? OTL Shuttle...to the Moon? Why? Why any of this?

It would make sense in way...
in 1971 was study to use the STS to go to the Moon, by rendezvous with propellant tank in LEO, then goes moon orbit with lander in cargo-bay.
Since they have Seadragon with payload of 550 tonnes in TL. that's propellant tank is the easy part
Look like NASA wanted to use STS in TL as backbone for there Space Transport infrastructure in LEO-Moon (and beyond ?)
would reduce cost by using one spacecraft, instead of expensive STS, Nuclear Shuttle and Space Tug.
(and that Sony Picture can use stock footage of good old STS, what cheaper as new expensive CGI)

source material
Cislunar Application of the Space Shuttle Orbiter
Project V1086, J. E. Blahnik; undated (post-July 1971)
attachment to memorandum from Director, Science and Applications,
to Manager, Space Shuttle Program, NASA Johnson Space Center, December 14, 1971.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

In fact a giant h2 tank is about as specific as Sea Dragon ever was about payload. I'd be thinking in terms of the Integrated Program Plan... We've already got a reusable LEM in season 1, and the Sea Dragon scene suggests that the "nuclear shuttle" component is probably in place. So while that doesn't get us Shuttle to the moon, it does make the shuttle fit at the Earth to LEO element of a fully reusable lunar system.

 

[Universal Century]

I’m tempted to start an alt-season 2 that avoids the OTL Space Shuttle, but I haven’t seen season 1 yet and I don’t have an Apple TV subscription.

So I might just write an alt-history space TL instead, if I can ever work up the motivation, energy, and time.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

So I might just write an alt-history space TL instead, if I can ever work up the motivation, energy, and time.

The question with these damn things is always "on what premise"?

What strikes me is that no one has done a serious attempt at a Star Clipper timeline,

 

[Michel Van]

the Sea Dragon scene suggests that the "nuclear shuttle" component is probably in place

or that Seadragon launch Jamestown new nuclear power reactor or first bunch of Nuclear Warheads (both have Plutonium)

 

[Athelstane]

Look like NASA wanted to use STS in TL as backbone for there Space Transport infrastructure in LEO-Moon (and beyond ?)
would reduce cost by using one spacecraft, instead of expensive STS, Nuclear Shuttle and Space Tug.

The Shuttle as it existed in OTL, though, is simply not suited for beyond LEO operation. In the first place it doesn't have the delta-v; in the second place the heat tiles can't handle lunar return reentry velocities; in the third place, it wasn't designed for long-term (i.e., more than a few weeks) of operation in space.

And if you've got Sea Dragon, why would you need a (far less capable) Shuttle?

It's only a trailer, but it raises some really bizarre questions.

 

[Expat]

The Shuttle as it existed in OTL, though, is simply not suited for beyond LEO operation. In the first place it doesn't have the delta-v; in the second place the heat tiles can't handle lunar return reentry velocities; in the third place, it wasn't designed for long-term (i.e., more than a few weeks) of operation in space.

And if you've got Sea Dragon, why would you need a (far less capable) Shuttle?

It's only a trailer, but it raises some really bizarre questions.

An active Earth orbit, is all I can think. If the Cold War has moved to orbital weapons...maybe?

 

[Michel Van]

The Shuttle as it existed in OTL, though, is simply not suited for beyond LEO operation.

No idea what they have change the STS design in TL, the maker of Study believe in 1971, the modification on orbiter are feasible.

And if you've got Sea Dragon, why would you need a (far less capable) Shuttle?

You need good system to get Astonauts and delicate hardware into space and back,
Sea Dragon launches will be brutal high G trip and it could be it's not manned rate Cargo Launcher in the TL (note no escape system on Apollo CM in SD launch scene)

Instead of complex Infrastructure of Shuttle, Nuclear Shuttle and Space Tugs and propellant resupply flights to fuel that Fleet.
Here seems that NASA use STS and Sea Dragon as main launch infrastructure.
Were Shuttle fly to Low orbit and if needed to Moon orbit for Jamestown colony crew exchange.
by dropping Nuclear Shuttle and Space Tugs, it save billions of Dollar in program !

 

[Ogrebear]

Maybe they go onto the Shuttle after Seadragon fails?

 

[Athelstane]

No idea what they have change the STS design in TL, the maker of Study believe in 1971, the modification on orbiter are feasible.

Yeah, but they're using historical footage of a Shuttle launch, with no CGI alterations I can make out. I think we are forced to conclude that they are using the Shuttle as it existed in OTL with no substantial changes. I smell lazy writing in the wind...

You need good system to get Astonauts and delicate hardware into space and back,

You do. But gradually upgrading Apollo hardware would seem more than adequate to the task. And, uh....a whole lot safer. 😲

 

[Bureaucromancer]

But gradually upgrading Apollo hardware would seem more than adequate to the task. And, uh....a whole lot safer. 😲

Try explaining that in 1969 or 1972 though. Let alone in the timeline where SIVB malfunctions just caused all the issues, including two dead astronauts, we saw at the end of season 1.

 

[Athelstane]

Try explaining that in 1969 or 1972 though. Let alone in the timeline where SIVB malfunctions just caused all the issues, including two dead astronauts, we saw at the end of season 1.

Yes, there's some hindsight in my statement.

But...fact is, the Shuttle we got was the result of a highly contingent set of compromises. The context needed for those compromises is just about impossible in the world of For All Mankind in the early 70's.

It's not that a shuttle of some kind is impossible here. It just wouldn't be the shuttle we *got*.

 

[Inoeth]

i'm super excited for this season no matter what. I know the tech won't go too crazy or badly done with people like Garrett Reisman on the team as advisor and whatnot.

 

[SouthernWind]

What are your hopes for the American and Soviet space program? Within the second season, and beyond?