For All Mankind (AH Tv series at Apple TV)

Thoroughly enjoyed episode 7, up there with S1E5 as my favorite episode in the show so far. Didn't see Paine's death until the shot switched to the rear of the 747 and my mind snapped into play and connected 1983, Korea and 747. Also the people involved in FAM need to be commended on how amazing the deep fake technology they are using is, the scene where Ronald Reagan is standing with Ellen (and John Glenn I think?) took me aback, seemed so real.

I imagine from here Reagan is going to appoint Ellen as full NASA Administrator, She will probably have a lot going for her after the American's re-took their mining site on her advice and she will sail thought the Senate, but her relationship with Pam will threaten her public standing (and standing with the President) while in tern her job will threaten her relationship with Pam. Also I guess the Senator Jimmy Carter thing was just because they had some historic footage of him they could use and we won't really hear from Senator Carter in the future, although my over-analyzing brain is still going to try and work out how his career has panned out now that he isn't President. I assume since Ted Kennedy was elected in '72, he knew he probably wasn't going to be able to run for President in '76 as Teddy would be running for a second term, so he decided to run for Senate in 1974 as his term as Governor came to an end, and primary-ed Herman Talmadge as a more civil-rights friendly candidate.

If I had to complain it would be the scene with Karen and Danny Stevens, that was just weird (she's known him since he was like 11 at least which is a bit icky) even if it has been being hinted at for the last few episodes.
Well we may not have seen the end of Senator Carter. If RDM and the other writers are wanting to have an AH for the masses it makes some sense for them to have Jimmy Carter come in in1984 after two terms of Reagan who ittl beat Carters OTL VP Mondale in 1980- just a little switchero if you will. I hope thats not what they are planning -not out of any shade towards Carter but just hoping they now take the chance to more fully break away from OTL and go full AH with Gary Hart or John Glenn or someone else. Also a successful launch of Buran seems to be set up so that alone provides some great AH..
 
I don’t look at KAL as “not butterflied away” so much as “repurposed as plausible.” Plus, it gave them a chance to use all that real footage.

Also agree that they had the Carter clip and just wanted to use it, so why not make him a senator? (Just like they had Shultz as Secretary of State.) Though I could be wrong and he could be a contender. Agree with others that I hope the show doesn’t go that route. Either way, they’ll probably skip over whoever it is and take us to the 90s or beyond next season.
 
What did the writers decide on the fate of the Vietnam War ITTL?
I ask because the daughter mentions the phrase “Republic of Vietnam”, which was reserved for South Vietnam.
I think FAM indicates that Nixon comes to an earlier agreement and troop withdrawl from Vietnam but as you say the question now with the Republic of Vietnam listed in the email is did the North take over the South ittl ?
The birth records (one dated 1966, the other 1974) are definitely South Vietnamese, with the father's occupation being an ARVN interpreter and the distinctive hyphenation between syllables of the same word (i.e. Việt-Nam instead of Việt Nam, a Southern practice phased out completely after reunification). The postage stamps are all OTL post-unification designs, though, and the ink stamps and sender's address clearly reads "Thành phố Hồ Chí Minh" (in constrast to the birth records, which reads "Saigon"); either a glaring oversight or a hint that the North took over in ATL as well. That the ARVN father emigrated to Texas is probably evidence for the latter.
 
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Uh wow, The Ringer published an article on deepfakes with what looks like a huge spoiler for the show. Don’t even want to link it just in case, but if you’re curious just google “for all mankind the ringer” and it should come up.
 
Yeah the second I saw that fighter jet, I knew exactly what was going to happen mostly because I knew of KAL007
 
Well that was a good episode.

Surprised at the Bar sale- did Mrs Baldwin even tell Ed what she was about to do?
Glad the twist in the bar when nowhere. Though the bedroom scene went on a bit too long imho.

Like how Margo, annoyed at Ellen breaks the rules in a surprisingly plausible way.

Losing Tom like that after he's been a fixture for so long? Maybe he survives?

Am surprised Buran is being made there and not in the usual place?

So Apollo-Soyuz is cancelled, does that mean Poole goes to the Moon instead?

I think Pam is going to vanish as Ellen gets pulled more and more into the politics.
 
Great episode, second season best so far.

At first, I found it strange when Margo pointed to a problem in solid rocket boosters for Buran. In our timeline, the Energia Rocket utilized liquid rocket boosters. However, when I looked closely at the diagrams on the scene that margo check the Buran schematics, I found that the show version of Buran does not utilize the RD-170 engine but a solid rocket fuel engine.

My theory:

In our timeline, the Buran was managed by Valentin Glushko, which developed the Liquid Lox/Kerosene RD-170 engines utilized on the Energia rocket boosters. In the show timeline, Korolev did not die in 66. In fact, he is still alive and is probably the head of the soviet space effort. Glushko and Korolev had differences. I doubt that they would put these aside for the RD-170 to be possible since, without Korolev's death, Glushko would continue developing engines with hypergolic fuels instead of developing Lox/Kerosene engines.

As for solid rocket Engines, Korolev saw them as an excellent safer alternative for military missiles instead of hypergolic rocket Engines. Korolev even started developing the first soviet solid fuel ICBM (RT-2), which Vasily Mishin concluded.

I believe that Korolev's preference for solid fuels in ICBMs, together with the USA space shuttle's early development (this would give more time to the spies of the soviet union), could lead the USSR to opt for solid rocket boosters instead of liquid rocket boosters.

Bonus Theory:

I also believe that the four engines on the show version of the Energia rocket core are not the RD-0120, but in fact, NK-15VM or NK-35 LOx/LH2 engines since the development of the N-1 rocket was continued.
 
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Great episode, second season best so far.

At first, I found it strange when Margo pointed to a problem in solid rocket boosters for Buran. In our timeline, the Energia Rocket utilized liquid rocket boosters. However, when I looked closely at the diagrams on the scene that margo check the Buran schematics, I found that the show version of Buran does not utilize the RD-170 engine but a solid rocket fuel engine.

My theory:

In our timeline, the Buran was managed by Valentin Glushko, which developed the Liquid Lox/Kerosene RD-170 engines utilized on the Energia rocket boosters. In the show timeline, Korolev did not die in 66. In fact, he is still alive and is probably the head of the soviet space effort. Glushko and Korolev had differences. I doubt that they would put these aside for the RD-170 to be possible since, without Korolev's death, Glushko would continue developing engines with hypergolic fuels instead of developing Lox/Kerosene engines.

As for solid rocket Engines, Korolev saw them as an excellent safer alternative for military missiles instead of hypergolic rocket Engines. Korolev even started developing the first soviet solid fuel ICBM (RT-2), which Vasily Mishin concluded.

I believe that Korolev's preference for solid fuels in ICBMs, together with the USA space shuttle's early development (this would give more time to the spies of the soviet union), could lead the USSR to opt for solid rocket boosters instead of liquid rocket boosters.

Bonus Theory:

I also believe that the four engines on the show version of the Energia rocket core are not the RD-0120, but in fact, NK-15VM or NK-35 LOx/LH2 engines since the development of the N-1 rocket was continued.

I’m a bit skeptical that they’d go to putting solids on a manned booster, though, especially after going to all the trouble to build the world’s best kerolox engines. As to N1, an article in the season’s opening crawl said they’d made it to N3 by now, and that it’s the most powerful on Earth (before Sea Dragon, I think)—so I’m gonna guess it’s ~200 tonnes to LEO.

I loved the ending scene, but such things as the Buran booster question leave me mildly infuriated. It’s like that Drake meme.

NO: Explore why the USSR went with solid boosters on its shuttle despite having no reason to do so.

YES: Danny Stevens cultivating a taste for MILFs and starting his naval career off by trying to bed an admiral’s wife.

I wonder who that Soviet engineer was. He looked too young to be Korolev himself, but I think he was supposed to be, given his Gulag anecdote.
 
I’m a bit skeptical that they’d go to putting solids on a manned booster, though, especially after going to all the trouble to build the world’s best kerolox engines. As to N1, an article in the season’s opening crawl said they’d made it to N3 by now, and that it’s the most powerful on Earth (before Sea Dragon, I think)—so I’m gonna guess it’s ~200 tonnes to LEO.

I loved the ending scene, but such things as the Buran booster question leave me mildly infuriated. It’s like that Drake meme.

NO: Explore why the USSR went with solid boosters on its shuttle despite having no reason to do so.

YES: Danny Stevens cultivating a taste for MILFs and starting his naval career off by trying to bed an admiral’s wife.

I wonder who that Soviet engineer was. He looked too young to be Korolev himself, but I think he was supposed to be, given his Gulag anecdote.
That "Old Engineer" is almost certainly Korolev:
  1. He is an engineer.
  2. Inspired by the stars and cosmos.
  3. He has personal experience in gulags.
  4. Rockets didn't exist when he was young.
  5. That flag conversation was probably something that an N1-L3 project leader would say. I don't see Glushko (who was the leader of the soviet space effort in 1983 in our timeline) saying the things about the flag in the way that the "Old Engineer" did, and Mishin (who would probably be the leader in the show timeline if Korolev was dead) didn't go to a gulag.
  6. Korolev is the point of divergence, the show likes to present impactful historical figures, noting fairer than the man that "created" the timeline to appear.
Maybe in this timeline, he did not have cancer and, because of that, had better enough health to survive his surgery in 1966. He would have 76 years in 1983.

I believe that the show timeline N3 is either the N-IFV-II-III or N-IMV-II-III of our timeline, with ~150 tonnes and ~230 tonnes to LEO, respectively. If this fact is correct, my second theory (about Energia core) gain even more credibility since NK-15vm or NK-35 would be needed for these rockets.

These things like the solid Buran booster annoy me too. If I was doing the show and if the Energia-Buran were strictly needed, I would use boosters with four NK-33 and a core with four NK-35. This would speed up the development of the Energia Rocket. In this way, maybe it would be plausible that they would have everything almost ready to fly by 1983.

Realistically speaking, I also don't believe that the soviet union would drop all the knowledge they had in closed-cycle technology for Kerolox engines. Solid boosters should probably be off the table for Energia-Buran. However, I had to come with something like a minimum explanation for what the show did. So I created this non-RD-170 solid-ICBM Korolev theory.
 
These things like the solid Buran booster annoy me too. If I was doing the show and if the Energia-Buran were strictly needed, I would use boosters with four NK-33 and a core with four NK-35. This would speed up the development of the Energia Rocket. In this way, maybe it would be plausible that they would have everything almost ready to fly by 1983.
That's how I would do it as well. And I'd have the boosters recovered downrange in Siberia, as was planned for Zenit IOTL. Because Sakhalin really doesn't make any sense as a new launch pad for the Soviets. It's not like shipping things by water helps them with anything--unless they're also opening a new factory at Vladivostok, they're limited by tunnel diameters on the trans-Siberian railroad or the size of things they can carry on big airplanes.

I get it, they're more character- than worldbuilding-driven, but must they botch fundamental things like this for no reason?
 
That's how I would do it as well. And I'd have the boosters recovered downrange in Siberia, as was planned for Zenit IOTL. Because Sakhalin really doesn't make any sense as a new launch pad for the Soviets. It's not like shipping things by water helps them with anything--unless they're also opening a new factory at Vladivostok, they're limited by tunnel diameters on the trans-Siberian railroad or the size of things they can carry on big airplanes.

I get it, they're more character- than worldbuilding-driven, but must they botch fundamental things like this for no reason?
Yeah, they are more character. Honestly, their world-building problems would not be noted by the general public. However, I also don't
think that they need to drastically change (or botch in your words) the Buran-Energia so that Margo can have a moment with a Soviet Engineer.

The only advantage of launching from Sakhalin is proximity to the sea since inland launch sites can cause trajectory restrictions that may impact rocket performance.

I don't know much about the Soviet railroad system, but tunnel diameters should not be a problem for a 3.7 to 3.9 m diameter booster. I remember something about the individual blocks of the proposed UR-700 being limited to almost 4 m of diameter and 50 m of height due to railroad tunnels and curves. As for the core, it could be transported using aircraft, as in our timeline.
 
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I know @Polish Eagle and @lucaorom are talking engineering, something I can’t really jump into, but just to point out that the show indicated that NASA did the designing on this shuttle rather than the Russians. It’s so cool that you can both dig into the AH of rocket-building decisions, but what about the AH the show is suggesting? Some high-ranking political idiot tells the generals to tell the engineers to just build the damn thing from the plans we stole.
 
Given how the Pentagon Guy emphasized they absolutely couldn't tell the Soviets about the O-ring issue, my guess is that Margo will inevitably be exposed for her leak. That may not know for sure it was her, but she'd be best positioned to make it happen. That, combined with Ellen's character arc, makes me suspect that Ellen will be asked to fire Margo. (That, or Ellen will volunteer to fire her for the sake of kudos from the Reagan administration.)

It'd probably cause problems if the Reagan administration openly admitted why they're firing her. "She prevented a Soviet space disaster" is a bit dicey PR-wise, given the Soviets are currently on the back-foot over the jetliner shoot down. Plus, admitting she leaked info about the O-rings means 1) admitting the KGB stole the plans from under the Pentagon/FBI's noses, and 2) admitting that US intelligence knew for sure that the Soviets were using American designs. So I expect NASA/Ellen will find an excuse to axe Margo.

If they have an old copy of von Braun's minority report, then the Reagan administration could axe Margo for participating in the Apollo 23 cover-up. After all, it was the Kennedy administration that did NASA dirty by handing out a mission-critical contract to an inept manufacture to get the ERA passed. So there's partisan cover for Reagan. It's an embarrassment for NASA, but not his party. And Margo could possibly strike a deal with Ellen to "go quietly" without fuss as long as her protege gets to stay at NASA. Which, character-wise, sets up a contrast for Margo and Ellen. Margo goes out disgraced like von Braun, but is pleased with her personal life, having repaired relations with her protege. Ellen is professionally boosted for playing the executioner, but is trapped in a fake marriage and VIP office that prevents her from being with her lover.
 
I know @Polish Eagle and @lucaorom are talking engineering, something I can’t really jump into, but just to point out that the show indicated that NASA did the designing on this shuttle rather than the Russians. It’s so cool that you can both dig into the AH of rocket-building decisions, but what about the AH the show is suggesting? Some high-ranking political idiot tells the generals to tell the engineers to just build the damn thing from the plans we stole.
That is a fair point, and a definite possibility--Lord knows we bitch about Alabama and Utah driving disadvantageous NASA decisions enough IOTL (indeed, even the OTL solid rocket boosters had some of that behavior in their backstory--Thiokol sent the president of the LDS Church to try to cajole the Mormon NASA Admin into giving them preferential treatment). Maybe Andropov's son-in-law works in the solid-propellant factory.

OK, I can go with that.
 
but what about the AH the show is suggesting? Some high-ranking political idiot tells the generals to tell the engineers to just build the damn thing from the plans we stole.
Given how political and militarized the Soviet space program was, maybe you're right. Stole plans and spying will always exist. Simply put, in our timeline, the Soviet leadership (high-ranking political idiots) and military (generals) wanted parity with the USA in rocket technology after losing the moon race. So they (engineers) started a shuttle (Buran-Energia) project highly "inspired despite some key differences" (enter the stole plans) on its American counterpart.

As for the "engineering talk" between me and @Polish Eagle, simply put, we agree that the Soviets in the show made an unlikely engineering decision given their historical context until the point of divergence.

Given how the Pentagon Guy emphasized they absolutely couldn't tell the Soviets about the O-ring issue, my guess is that Margo will inevitably be exposed for her leak. That may not know for sure it was her, but she'd be best positioned to make it happen. That, combined with Ellen's character arc, makes me suspect that Ellen will be asked to fire Margo. (That, or Ellen will volunteer to fire her for the sake of kudos from the Reagan administration.)
I feel that Margo will have some bad outcomes at NASA for her decision to tell Sergei Nikulov the problem. Still, I believe that was an "in character" move on her part. This action guarantees a successful soviet shuttle in the show context. However, I expect a positive outcome from the bond she formed with Sergei Nikulov, maybe in the season finale.

Lord knows we bitch about Alabama and Utah driving disadvantageous NASA decisions enough IOTL (indeed, even the OTL solid rocket boosters had some of that behavior in their backstory--Thiokol sent the president of the LDS Church to try to cajole the Mormon NASA Admin into giving them preferential treatment).
Very true.

Maybe Andropov's son-in-law works in the solid-propellant factory.

OK, I can go with that.
Probably Brezhnev son-in-law, but maybe, who knows?
 
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Episode 7 was impressive

I think the Soviet who talk with Poole was Vasily Mishin
the actor had great likeness to him
Vasily_Mishin.jpeg

he has the right age in Serie

Glushko would be to old 77 years
no way he is Korolev do bad health he would be dead in 1970s


Buran is biggest Surprise in Serie
Instead to spend zillion of Rubels and years delay in Development on Soviet Shuttle
The AH Soviets copycat the US shuttle
save allot of time and money

but why they need FOUR full sized SRB and why they build it launch site on Sakhalin island ?
i know it for story sake, but why would put the Soviet there newest program there ?
 
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I do agree with the head-scratching on the dubious choice of Sakhalin. It reminds me of the decision to launch Sea Dragons from Guam but build them in a place that requires the use of the Panama Canal. It does just feel like the creatives needed a couple more Cold War tension points.

I wonder if Able Archer is on the way, or if we’ll even get that far now that the moon has kicked off. Am I wrong or is there an OTL near nuclear launch around this time? One of those radar mistakes where if some colonel hadn’t said “wait a minute that’s a flock of seagulls” we’d all be fighting rad roaches right now?
 
I do agree with the head-scratching on the dubious choice of Sakhalin. It reminds me of the decision to launch Sea Dragons from Guam but build them in a place that requires the use of the Panama Canal. It does just feel like the creatives needed a couple more Cold War tension points.

I wonder if Able Archer is on the way, or if we’ll even get that far now that the moon has kicked off. Am I wrong or is there an OTL near nuclear launch around this time? One of those radar mistakes where if some colonel hadn’t said “wait a minute that’s a flock of seagulls” we’d all be fighting rad roaches right now?
There was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Soviet_nuclear_false_alarm_incident and it involved this man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislav_Petrov
It will be awesome if he is included somehow :)
 
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Episode 7 was impressive

I think the Soviet who talk with Poole was Valentyn Glushko the actor had great likeness to him
I still think that is Korolev. Glushko was sentenced to Gulag. However, he was put to work on various aircraft projects with other arrested scientists [https://www.planetary.org/profiles/valentin-glushko]. Besides that, as I said in my anterior post, that flag conversation was probably something that an N1-L3 project leader would say. I don't see Glushko (who was the leader of the soviet space effort in 1983 in our timeline) saying the things about the flag in the way that the "Old Engineer" did, and Mishin (who would probably be the leader in the show timeline if Korolev was dead) didn't go to a gulag.

As for the actor likeness, I don't' know if I am breaking any forum rules posting screen capture of the show here, but here is a comparison with Korolev:

1617481786901.png
 
here the Buran in Detail

Margo claim they copy it from US Shuttle is not quite true
This here more Energia with Buran but with four Solids
The Take off must be brutal if they match SRB it would be thrust of 60,32 MN !
If the Soviet do recuperation of Solids like US Shuttle, Sakhalin island makes sense
The core stage, (like in Size of Energia) could be a second stage with ignition at burnout of solids
Theoretical This could launch Buran orbiter to Translunar injection

FAMS2Buran.jpg
 
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