Foods banned in Christain based civilisations

[freodhoric]

apologies...which bull god were they worshipping?

None? I believe a form of proto-Hebrew. If not, ancient Egyptians practices would seem more likely that any Canaanite religions.

Jesus and the Apostles also thought they were living in the End Times (hence the messianic nature)

if you think you're living in the final days of the world, you don't worry about how to appoint a successor.

I see no evidence that Jesus believed that, but the Apostles certainly did. They still made provision for appointing Apostolic successors, but it seems to me that they acted more as caretakers of the community, feeding widows and the like, than as guardians of morality, and i've never seen any indication that they saw themselves as intercessors or mediators or interpreters for God.

what do attention spans have to do with anything?

the fact that Jesus said that people no longer had to do the full 613 Laws, suggests he was simplifying the faith -- in other words, reacting to the fact peoples' attention spans had gotten shorter, not longer.

When Moses disappeared for forty days (and don't forget the forty nights), the Hebrews demanded something else to worship. Sounds like a short attention span to me. Or an application of the principle of out-of-sight, out-of-mind. Jesus certainly simplified the form of the faith, but it's harder to pay attention to that which isn't always reminding you that it exists.

comparing Isaiah to Nostradamus? I have to admit, I've never seen anyone do that before.

Yeah, that's a stretch. There, I'm only trying to point out how hard it is to understand prophecy and Nostrodamus is the only non-Biblical prophet i can think of.

a logical leap people back then understood -- they had written language and money, after all.

I'm not sure that's the same thing. Using money as an example, money then was trading hunks of precious metal. How long did it take for money to go to worth by government fiat? About 4,000 years by my count (maybe the Romans had some such ideas, but i hear that in later years they had a serious problem with sestercii devaluation). Not all logical leaps are equal.

 

[Keenir]

None? I believe a form of proto-Hebrew. If not, ancient Egyptians practices would seem more likely that any Canaanite religions.

so...Apis?

I see no evidence that Jesus believed that, but the Apostles certainly did. They still made provision for appointing Apostolic successors,

before Christ went on the cross?
(I'm curious - just because I didn't learn that in Sunday School, doesn't mean you didn't)

When Moses disappeared for forty days (and don't forget the forty nights), the Hebrews demanded something else to worship. Sounds like a short attention span to me.

sounds like despiration (on the Hebrews' part)...they get led into the wilderness where there's nothing to eat & little to drink, and suddenly their God-appointed leader leaves for several weeks?

panic, in such straits, is understandable.

Or an application of the principle of out-of-sight, out-of-mind. Jesus certainly simplified the form of the faith, but it's harder to pay attention to that which isn't always reminding you that it exists.

except that the early Christians had tons of things reminding them -- images of fish and loaves and doves, crosses (lifesized and smaller ones)

did I just agree with you?

Yeah, that's a stretch. There, I'm only trying to point out how hard it is to understand prophecy and Nostrodamus is the only non-Biblical prophet i can think of.

tis okay.

I'm not sure that's the same thing. Using money as an example, money then was trading hunks of precious metal.

...and shells, and cloth, and oral promises.

How long did it take for money to go to worth by government fiat?

purely by government fiat? we haven't even reached that point nowadays. all governments keep gold and other commodities under lock and key.

 

[MarkA]

The Golden Calf was Hathor I presume. Moses after all set up a bronze or gilded serpent to ward off disease and to cure those already infected. This mixture of different traditions and myths was common and explains many if not most of the contradictions in the bible in old and new testaments. Also the 'discovery' of the Law in the eighth century meant of course that for all that time the Jews lived in blissful ignorance of these commandments. Which is why they worshipped other gods besides Yehveh all that time.

All this trolling by christian fundamentalists here is really starting to annoy me. If you believe all this omnicient plan stuff then why are you joining a discussion about alternate history at all? Go peddle you nonsense somewhere else.

Now please can we continue with the original post please?

 

[freodhoric]

I see no evidence that Jesus believed that, but the Apostles certainly did. They still made provision for appointing Apostolic successors,

before Christ went on the cross?
(I'm curious - just because I didn't learn that in Sunday School, doesn't mean you didn't)

Not that i'm aware of. They had to replace Judas Iscariot. Lessee, Acts 1:21-26. They proposed two candidates, prayed, and then cast lots. That's real scientific. There's nothing recorded after that about replacing Apostles, so I appear to be wrong. Paul claims to be an apostle. The Apostles seem to have passed the duties of taking care of the community to deacons in Acts 6:1-7, so they could preach. In choosing deacons, 1 Timothy 3:8-13 lists the qualifications for a deacon and 3:10 says he must be tested. (And i didn't learn any of this in Sunday school. Young's Concordance and a Bible.)

sounds like despiration (on the Hebrews' part)...they get led into the wilderness where there's nothing to eat & little to drink, and suddenly their God-appointed leader leaves for several weeks?

panic, in such straits, is understandable.

Interesting point. I'll have to think of that next time i read it.

except that the early Christians had tons of things reminding them -- images of fish and loaves and doves, crosses (lifesized and smaller ones)

did I just agree with you?

And adopted even more symbols as time went on. Christmas trees come to mind. People seem to love symbols.

...and shells, and cloth, and oral promises.

Shells and cloth have intrinsic worth, as jewelry or clothing. Cloth has worth in a pre-industrial society as there is a great deal of labor involved in its manufacture. I've never heard of cloth or oral promises used as money. That's sounds more like barter to me. Letters of credit and checks are a later invention (the Romans may have had some of that, but it didn't stick).

purely by government fiat? we haven't even reached that point nowadays. all governments keep gold and other commodities under lock and key.

The worth of todays money has no relation to the precious metal held by the issuing government. Coinage used to be composed of a strictly regulated weight of metal. Then we got paper money that was redeemable for (or at least representative of) a certain weight of metal (in the Civil War, bills were made that were redeemable for an equivalent value in stamps), which is itself a comparatively recent development. Now we have paper money that's worth a dollar because that's what the government tells us it's worth.

All this trolling by christian fundamentalists here is really starting to annoy me.

I wasn't aware that talking about Judeo-Christian theology in responding to posts about Judeo-Christian theology, in a thread about Judeo-Christian theology, was trolling. I must be more careful in future.

If you believe all this omnicient plan stuff then why are you joining a discussion about alternate history at all?

And if you don't like discussion, why are you on a discussion board?

Now please can we continue with the original post please?

Great! Let's hear your idea.

 

[Keenir]

Not that i'm aware of. They had to replace Judas Iscariot. Lessee, Acts 1:21-26. They proposed two candidates, prayed, and then cast lots. That's real scientific.

I started to say "thats finding a replacement, not successors"...but that'd be splitting the hair pretty thin....so lets drop that part.

There's nothing recorded after that about replacing Apostles, so I appear to be wrong.

nobody's perfect.

okay, there was Buddha, but look at his wild youth.

Paul claims to be an apostle. The Apostles seem to have passed the duties of taking care of the community to deacons in Acts 6:1-7, so they could preach. In choosing deacons, 1 Timothy 3:8-13 lists the qualifications for a deacon and 3:10 says he must be tested. (And i didn't learn any of this in Sunday school. Young's Concordance and a Bible.)

cool.

And adopted even more symbols as time went on. Christmas trees come to mind. People seem to love symbols.

*nods* its part of being human.

Shells and cloth have intrinsic worth, as jewelry or clothing.

really? what is the value of a clamshell? how many do I need to buy a cow?
(if it had intrinsic worth, why is the answer to those questions different in different parts of the world?)

Now we have paper money that's worth a dollar because that's what the government tells us it's worth.

then how come that - when the government prints too much in the way of dollars - the value of those dollars goes down? I doubt the government is saying "yeah, lets torment our taxpayers by making money worth a bit less"

btw, to settle the matter, I started a thread in Chat, to find out where money value comes from.

 

[the_lyniezian]

so now you're suggesting that God changed His Mind? after all, you rightly pointed out that nothing can stop an all-powerful being....so what stopped Him from offering His Spirit in the time of Moses?

The fact that Jesus hadn't died yet- and even that's not entirely true, since the Holy Spirit was said to be upon the prophets, but the outpouring of the Spirit was not given in quite the same way until afer Jesus' ascension.

And no, it's not changing His mind. It's more like two stages of a plan.

 

[Keenir]

The fact that Jesus hadn't died yet-

so Jesus couldn't have lived and died in the time of Moses...because Jesus hadn't yet died??

mind you, Jesus also hadn't yet died in the time of Herod the Great, so how could Jesus be born then?

And no, it's not changing His mind. It's more like two stages of a plan.

one that's rather insulting to the Hebrew people. what made them unworthy of being in the company of Jesus? how come they had to wait millenia in Hell with all the other non-Christians?

 

[the_lyniezian]

so Jesus couldn't have lived and died in the time of Moses...because Jesus hadn't yet died??

mind you, Jesus also hadn't yet died in the time of Herod the Great, so how could Jesus be born then?



one that's rather insulting to the Hebrew people. what made them unworthy of being in the company of Jesus? how come they had to wait millenia in Hell with all the other non-Christians?

1. Not sure what you're getting at.

2. Salvation is not dependent on whether you died before Jesus or not. Enoch, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses and Elijah are Biblically verifiable examples of this (will provide quotes at a later date as I need to go to bed!) But Jesus was 'the Lamb slain from *the foundation of the world*'- possibly meaning that the consequences of His death and resurrection are, to some extent, eternal. But what I was on about was the Holy Spirit, which is a different kettle of fish altogether.

 

[the_lyniezian]

how come they had to wait millenia in Hell with all the other non-Christians?

Just thought I'd add- Elijah the prophet definitely didn't: he was caught up to heaven in a whirlwind. Enoch, before the flood (thus not strictly an Israelite), was also translated.

 

[Keenir]

1. Not sure what you're getting at.

I asked "why couldn't Jesus have shown up in Moses' time?"

...and your answer was, "because Jesus hadn't died yet."

But Jesus was 'the Lamb slain from *the foundation of the world*'-

yet is absent from the OT - despite them being a sheep-herding people, and thus a lot more likely to understand Jesus' purpose, than would a bunch of perfumed city-living Romans and Greeks.


tis suspicious, is all I'm saying.

 

[the_lyniezian]

so Jesus couldn't have lived and died in the time of Moses...because Jesus hadn't yet died??

mind you, Jesus also hadn't yet died in the time of Herod the Great, so how could Jesus be born then?



one that's rather insulting to the Hebrew people. what made them unworthy of being in the company of Jesus? how come they had to wait millenia in Hell with all the other non-Christians?

I asked "why couldn't Jesus have shown up in Moses' time?"

...and your answer was, "because Jesus hadn't died yet."




yet is absent from the OT - despite them being a sheep-herding people, and thus a lot more likely to understand Jesus' purpose, than would a bunch of perfumed city-living Romans and Greeks.


tis suspicious, is all I'm saying.

1. Probably I read the statement differently to what to meant. Will have to go back and check.

2a. Look closely, and you'll find Jesus in the OT. He's just not obvious to those who aren't looking for Him.

2b. Your description of the Romans and Greeks ignores the fact that some were poor, uneducated, etc.:

"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called..." (1 Corinthians 1:26, KJV)

Must get to bed now.

 

[Keenir]

2a. Look closely, and you'll find Jesus in the OT. He's just not obvious to those who aren't looking for Him.

a post ago, you knew what I was referring to....oddly, you seem to have lost that (sorry to hear it)....my question was "why didn't Jesus show up in the OT and do what he did in the NT in OTL ?"


2b. Your description of the Romans and Greeks ignores the fact that some were poor, uneducated, etc.:[/quote]

and that makes a Roman mousecatcher somehow able to understand terms related to herding sheep in the Middle East?

 

[the_lyniezian]

a post ago, you knew what I was referring to....oddly, you seem to have lost that (sorry to hear it)....my question was "why didn't Jesus show up in the OT and do what he did in the NT in OTL ?"


2b. Your description of the Romans and Greeks ignores the fact that some were poor, uneducated, etc.:

and that makes a Roman mousecatcher somehow able to understand terms related to herding sheep in the Middle East?[/quote]

Still not in bed yet...

Ah, so that's what you mean. Surely there were shepherds in the rest of the Empire, even if some of the prractices may have been different. A amn named Selwyn Hughes (I think) wrote a book taking the shepherding theme, given in Psalm 23 ("The Lord is my Shepherd"), despite being a 20th century Scotsman (though it sounds as if he was Welsh with a name like that!), and former shepherd.

 

[Codae]

Capybaras are fish, too! Don't forget them!

(source: The Ancestor's Tale, by Richard Dawkins)

 

[freodhoric]

I thought capybaras were 50-pound Mexican mice?

Er, to rephrase, the largest rodents in South America.

 

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

I thought capybaras were 50-pound Mexican mice?

Er, to rephrase, the largest rodents in South America.

50 Kilogram Cane Rats, But Yeah ...

However to a Catholic ...

They Count as Fish on Fridays!

 

[Redbeard]

Fridays actually. but they got around that by eating beaver

Well at least they didn't eat anyone's pussycat...or did they?
You could argue that they sometimes have a fishy odeur

Were their any foods strongly identified with paganism?

In Denmark (and I guess neighbouring countries) the church strongly discouraged eating horsemeat well into 19th century. As I understand it because sacrificing and eating horsemeat had been part of rural pagan rituals in pre-Christian times.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

 

[freodhoric]

However to a Catholic ...

They Count as Fish on Fridays!

I didn't believe this but, it's true. But only in Venezuela. Same rationale as beavers, i.e. they swim a lot.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/21/world/americas/21rodent.html
http://www.rebsig.com/capybara/capymeat.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capybara
http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/08/24/loc_loc2rodent.html
http://bearcastle.com/blog/?p=439