Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by VVD0D95, Nov 29, 2018.
She is indeed
From what I know, Margaret Douglas actually had four sons and four daughters - judging by the mourners on her tomb, anyway. But history has only ever remembered Henry and Charles... Admittedly the tomb thing comes from Wikipedia, but given the time, it's possible she had several more children who died in infancy...
Oh that’s qhire interesting I did not know that
I found this on Lennox wiki
Henry Stuart (born and died 1544)
Henry Stuart (1545–1567), born at Temple Newsam, who eventually married Mary, Queen of Scots, daughter of King James V
Philip Stuart (1556)
Charles Stuart (1557–1576), who married Elizabeth Cavendish in 1574. Elizabeth was the daughter of Sir William Cavendish and Bess of Hardwick.
From Margaret Douglas, Countess of Lennox's Wikipedia Page
I don't know whether I fully believe it, but I always thought the age gaps between her children seemed rather large for there not to be at least some other pregnancies between them...
Oh interesting, given that Mary apparently told the imperial ambassador that she felt Margaret was the right candidate to succeed her this is giving me ideas
Chapter 68: A Queen’s Decision
“Our cousin, Emperor Charles is dead. Our cousin, King Ferdinand has succeeded him as Emperor.” Mary said reading from the letter that had come from their ambassador in Brussels. “Consequently, the new Emperor has moved the Imperial capital to Prague and has appointed his second son Ferdinand as governor in Vienna until such time as he decides otherwise.” She finished reading the letter and then said. “Well this certainly presents new opportunities. Our cousin the Emperor had reigned for forty years before his death and as such Europe bent to his will. Luis, would you say that Ferdinand is like his brother?” She asked the question knowing her husband had met the man a few times during his journeys.
“Not at all, Your Majesty.” Luis replied. “Where Charles looked to solve things through force first and diplomacy second, Ferdinand does the opposite. I feel that such a thing means we might get more chances from him.”
“We believe you are right.” Mary said. “Emperor Ferdinand has already set forward a proposal of a betrothal between our daughter Maria and his grandson Rudolf.”
She looked at Pembroke expecting him to present some sort of dissent, instead he said. “I think such a marriage would be a good one, Sire.”
Mary felt a pain then, she was due to enter her confinement soon, but she still insisted on attending council meetings. This from Pembroke surprised her. “You have quite changed your tune, my lord. Might we ask why?”
Pembroke blushed slightly. “Sire, I have seen the error of my ways. We would definitely gain more in terms of trade arrangements from a marriage to the Emperor’s family than Spain, due to the link that the Empire has with countries such as Hungary and Bohemia both of which see our products as necessary for their goods.”
Mary thought on that. “Indeed, though Spain is immediately to our south and an essential ally in the fight against France.” She had made up her mind somewhat, but she still wanted to hear from her council.
“France and Spain are at peace now, Majesty, but the way King Felipe acts, makes me think they will soon be at war. That is not something we wish to be involved in.” Pembroke replied.
Mary raised an eyebrow. “What do you mean?”
Pembroke did not initially speak, he drank a cup of wine and then said. “Majesty, I have read the reports that have come through from our ambassador in Spain. They do not make for good reading. The new King is impulsive, and demands all obey him no matter the madness of his ideas. I believe he shall renew war with France soon. An alliance with Spain through marriage would drag us into that war, and given the situation at home, I am not sure that is wise.”
Luis spoke then. “Pembroke is right, Your Majesty. The situation in the south west is a far more pressing concern than anything else right now.”
Ah, the south-west, where the Protestants had gotten some people together to burn monasteries and cause havoc. She sighed and asked. “Has Lord Bath managed to get them under control?” She had dispatched letters to the man urging him to act with haste, she knew what might happen should the Protestants get into the hand of things.
“He was badly wounded whilst fighting them, Majesty.” Pembroke said.
“So, they have attacked a servant of the Crown.” Mary surmised. She looked at Cranmer and asked. “Why should we not have them rounded up and burned for this?”
Cranmer was old and frail, his heretical ways had been spared by his recanting of them, and the good words that both her husband and Pembroke had spoken of him. He now looked terrified. “Majesty, burning them would simply make them martyrs and embolden others. No, conversation is the best way to proceed.”
“Conversation?” Mary asked. “We have given them a chance to approach with their concerns. They have not done so. We will not tolerate treason.”
“We must bring their leader in, then they will listen.” Cranmer said.
“How can you be so sure?” Mary asked. “Their leader is the one who demanded they sack monasteries.” Such a thing was an outrage to her and she wanted their blood.
Cranmer looked as if he were flailing for an answer, but he did not come up with one, instead, the Earl of Huntingdon did. “You put out a meeting place, Majesty, you say you will come and listen and then you kill them. But you make it seem that they attacked first.”
“That is dishonest and a sin.” Mary said.
“It is the only way to kill a wolf.” Huntingdon said. “Otherwise they will continue to spread.”
England staying out of the french-spanish war? Interesting....
Chapter 69: A New Dawn
Fatherhood was strange. He had just turned sixteen, and was about to be recognised formally as a man and accepted onto the Privy Council, and yet he was a father. His daughter Mary-named after his mother- was the light of his life, she smiled, she gurgled and he was completely enraptured by her. And by his wife, Jane. She was a delight, she challenged him and made him think, she made him a better man and for that he was grateful. She was pregnant once more, and he knew the court hoped for a son, to secure the succession. He just hoped for his wife to be healthy.
He looked at his father the man who had brought him and his wife together and found himself concerned. Something was eating away at the King, he looked frailer than he had ever done before, and he rarely spoke. Increasingly, meetings were decided with written declarations not the verbal ones that James knew his father had used before. Still, his father had asked him to come to his solar and he knew to listen. There was a moment’s of silence then the King spoke.
“Tell us, James, what do you make of the ministers we have?”
It was not the question he had been expecting, but one he had been thinking about for some time. “The Earl of Arran is ambitious and will go to all sorts of lengths to keep and maintain power. He and the Earl of Atholl will continue to compete with one another as long as Atholl holds your ear. Sinclair is perhaps the most carefully placed lord on the council due to his position as Lord High Admiral. However, I think he is not so smart as he thinks.”
“And what would you do with these men?” The King asked.
“I would give Arran a position that would soothe his ego but not hold any real power. Something such as Chamberlain of the Castle, and as for Atholl, I would ensure his son is kept close by, their relationship is such that Atholl will do anything to protect his son. Sinclair, I am not sure. He is your favourite, Your Majesty.” James replied. He had never really known what to make of Sinclair and therefore kept quiet on him, but his father would want honesty.
The King nodded. “All reasonable judgements, though in regards to Sinclair, we would suggest that you keep him at an arm’s length. The man is good, and smart, but sometimes he can be too smart.”
This was a surprising thing to come from the King, give how many favours he had lavished upon Sinclair, including giving him vast grants of lands in the Highlands near former Argyll territory. “Why do you say that, Sire?”
The King looked at him and simply said. “Sinclair is a man who knows what he wants and he knows how to get it. However, he is brash and you are not.”
“So, you think there would be a clash of personalities then?” James asked.
“Yes.” The King said. “Now, what would you in regards to relations with the English and the French?”
James knew this would be the defining question of this conversation and so he took some time to think it over. Eventually when he had reached an answer he said. “I would continue to keep close ties with the English, they are our southern neighbour and therefore it would be foolish to ignore them. I would also try to keep good trade ties with the French, but I would not renew the Auld Alliance.”
The King looked surprised by this. “And why is that?”
“Because the French use us as bait, something with which they can use to hit the English over the head with. It serves us no purpose, and needlessly costs us lives. We need those lives here, so we can develop.” James answered.
The King nodded and smiled. “You are ready to attend the council full time then.”
Princess Mary of Rothesay for her aunts and grandmother, and her great-grandmother. I approve I hope she has a little sister Katherine for Katherines Grey and Parr at some point, though.
Also love the fact that the Duke of Rothesay is coming into his own. He'll make a fascinating force to watch in the coming years, I shouldn't wonder.
Glad you’re liking it. Rothesay is going to
Dominate that’s for sure
Question for you all, who would you consider a worthy groom for Mary of Scotland born 1542? Charles IX of France is betrothed to Joanna of Austria, Carlos prince of Asturias is eight years younger than her.
Charles of France does have a younger brother, doesn't he? He certainly did in history...
If not, Erik of Sweden? Or his younger half-brother, John III of Sweden, born 1533 and 1537 respectively? I have done a very quick Google and John III of Sweden seems to have been tolerant of Catholics, though he himself was Lutheran, and he was Duke of Finland independently of his older half-brother, so he strikes me as a viable husband for Mary, particularly if the Duke of Rothesay has any say in his younger sister's marriage. It would be interesting to see Sweden and Scotland joining forces for religious toleration across the North Sea...
He does indeed, henri. Though the age gap is still there
Erik of Sweden could be quite good, as could John. Hmm I’m leaning toward John now aha
Blue might know if this is realistic or not, but could we see Erik married to Catherine Jagellon? @BlueFlowwer
A Scandinavian match for Mary of Scotland would be really good
Erik or John tho?
Would’ not this risk Scotland being dragged into the interminable Swedish/ Danish - or, if you prefer the Danish/Swedish, wars of this period?
Separate names with a comma.