Flower O'Scotland

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by VVD0D95, Nov 29, 2018.

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  1. FalconHonour Well-Known Member

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    I feel sorry for Mary in a way. She has not the foggiest just how ambitious the Grey's are, does she?
     
  2. VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

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    Oh indeed not, but she's far more aware for how ambitious her other cousin Margaret is, and she's more prepared to handle that 'threat'.
     
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  3. Threadmarks: Chapter 52: Finalising

    VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

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    Chapter 52: Finalising



    April, 1552



    James sometimes wondered why his nobles made life so difficult. Was there something in the ale and the wine that made them so bloody stubborn and hot headed? Could they not understand that if they simply listened to him and did as he bid, their lives would be so much easier? He’d been proven right time and time again and still they continued to postulate and do all sorts of things that they needn’t do. It was infuriating, but he kept at it, because he was King and that was what Kings did.

    He looked at his ministers and said. “We know there are some who think this proposal from our English cousin is suspicious, but here is our reason for why we think it should happen.” He took a breath and continued. “It would prevent the constant fighting that has plagued our two realms since Edward chose Toom Tabard as King following Alexander’s death. It would ensure that we are allied together against the greater menace that is the heresies coming out of Germany. And finally, it would come with greater trade links, ensuring we prosper as a nation.” That his son got on well with the Grey girl was also good, but he knew his lords did not care about that.

    Cardinal Beaton who had been much more sympathetic toward his aims since their conversation spoke then. “Sire, I find that you are right. This marriage would ensure that peace can be had on our isle for the first time since Alexander’s day. We need not worry about English aggression if our future King is wed to a member of the royal family who comes with such a significant claim.”

    James looked at Beaton and said. “That is one factor, yes, but it is not the only factor. Our cousin of England has looked favourably on Lady Jane, and as such has also hinted that she wishes for a better union of allies between us to ensure the French do not monopolise trade as they have been doing.” King Henry of France was a bit of an idiot, doing as he did with his ships.

    “Of course, Sire.” Cardinal Beaton said. “Furthermore it keeps a good woman away from the heresies.”

    James nodded, he suspected that Lady Grey was more amenable to the heresies than she let on but he would not say that now. He noticed however, that the Earl of Arran had his hand raised and so he nodded to the man. “Go on.”

    The Earl was in the line of succession, some way down behind James’ children, but still he harboured ambitions, James knew. “Sire, whilst I understand where the view of benefits toward the English marriage goes, Lady Grey is just that, a Lady. She is not a Princess of England by birth, and her dowry is being paid for by her father a Marquess, not by the Queen of England. Consequently, I think that we would be better served looking toward a French marriage.”

    James almost laughed. Almost. It was so typical of Arran to look at things one way and then go the other way if he learned that Beaton was going toward his original position. “The Queen of England has agreed to pay the dowry for Lady Jane.” James bluffed. That point was still being negotiated, but Arran didn’t need to know that.

    Arran looked surprised and then said. “Still, a French marriage is the smarter move for me. It would ensure a maintaining of the traditional alliance and would also give us a large dowry and better economic ties that are guaranteed.”

    James looked at the man, Arran was ageing and was perhaps not long left for this world, but he still had supporters at court, some of whom hid their loyalty to him. James took a breath and then replied. “We understand that this was true once, but France now is a Kingdom ruled by an idiot, who listens to a woman old enough to be his mother. King Henry has not given anything to us that we are owed by treaty, and as such, his ships flounder against English and Portuguese and Spanish vessels. We would be mad as King to entrust our nation’s defences to trade with a King such as he.”

    Arran looked stumped then, and then said. “But what about allying with England? That has no guarantee of peace.”

    “Indeed, perhaps not, not if one were to look at it from the traditional sense. But these are not usual times. Trade is of great importance here and the English need us as much as we need them.” James said, he knew he was exaggerating but still, it would not hurt.

    Arran then asked. “What will you do about the Countess of Lennox then?”

    James sighed. “Our sister’s daughter will be kept under close watch for now, and the Earl and his wife shall remain at court for the time being.”

    “Do you think that is wise?” Arran asked.

    James laughed. “Most wise. We all know what the Countess is like.”

    “Yes, Sire.” Arran said, though James knew he hadn’t heard the last of this.
     
  4. Tyler96 Well-Known Member

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    Arran's not that old, is he? A bit harsh of James to call him "ageing".
     
  5. VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

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    He's three years younger than James, so no he's not that old at all aha
     
  6. Threadmarks: Chapter 53: Warwick Groove

    VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

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    Chapter 53: Warwick Groove



    July, 1552


    Edward cleared his mind, or tried to. He knew why he was here at Warwick Castle. The Queen had given him very specific instructions and he would follow them to the letter. Of course the Queen was pregnant once more, it seemed she and the Duke of Lancaster were desperate for another child, and though he worried for the safety of the Queen given the perils of childbirth, he hoped that they would have a male heir, to truly secure the succession. He cleared his throat and then spoke to the man before him.

    “John, I trust you are well.” Edward said. “I am here on orders of Her Majesty, the Queen. I am here to discuss certain rumours that have been heard at court pertaining to you.”

    John Dudley had risen high at the court of King Henry through his martial ability and his political skill. Edward knew that a lesser man would not be able to detect subtle hints and changes to his mannerisms, but Edward had worked with John for years before this and he was able to detect certain things. Like right now, John had shifted slightly, which suggested he was nervous. “What things has Her Majesty heard?” John asked, clasping his hands.

    “That you have been having secret meetings at your estates with reprehensible figures, trying to stir up discontent against Her Majesty. That you have been using heretical preachers to do your work for you as well.” Edward said carefully.

    “Pah, nonsense.” John said, though his hands unclasped suggesting there was truth to what was being said. “I would do no such thing.”

    Edward placed two documents on the table before them. “These are documents which were found on two people, both of whom claim to be in your pay.”

    “And you believed them? What evidence did they offer?” John demanded.

    Edward produced the white fern that John had adopted during his time on the regency council, the piece of paper had been produced en masse when they had thought there might be civil war. “They had this. Both of them. And we both know only those who you saw as your retainers were given them.”

    John looked at him and then at the fern, Edward could tell he was trying to formulate a rebuttal but instead he simply sighed and said. “And what of it? It is not a crime to give retainers my sigil in case someone stops them.”

    “And why would you think someone was stopping them, or going to stop them, unless they were riding to places where trouble was being fermented?” Edward asked.

    There was a moment’s silence then John said. “What do you want from me?”

    “I want to know whether you are committing treason, John, that is all.” Edward replied.

    “Treason?” John asked, his voice sounded as though it was getting more irate. “How can it be treason when the woman who sits the throne is illegitimate and isn’t even the same religion as most of her subjects?”

    “So you admit to plotting against the Queen?” Edward asked.

    “I admit to plotting against the bastard yes.” John said. “She has no claim, her father made sure of that, and we both agreed to it when he decided that. His legitimate heirs died with Queen Eleanor, Edward. Why are you supporting some woman who is married to a Portuguese idiot?”

    “She is the last living Tudor, she is of King Henry’s blood and his lawful daughter in the eyes of the law and church.” Edward said.

    John scoffed. “You only want the power she has given you, you do not care about her legitimacy. You are a traitor to England.”

    Edward sighed. “I am not the traitor here.” He nodded to the guards at the back of the room, who entered in. “You are.”

    The guards picked him up off the chair and John swore. “What are you doing?”

    “John Dudley, Earl of Warwick, on behalf of Her Majesty Queen Mary, I name you traitor to the Queen and Realm and order you to be brought before the crown for judgement.” Edward said.

    As the guards dragged John away, the man snarled. “You have sold your soul to the devil!”
     
  7. Threadmarks: Chapter 54: Royals Dance

    VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

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    Chapter 54: Royals Dance



    October, 1552


    Her belly swelled with child, but there were other things she had to worry about. Mainly what to do about the land that had once belonged to the Earl of Warwick. The man had acquired vast estates during his time serving as a General and Admiral for her father, and then as a regent for her brother and sister. So much land and so much money. Some of it was church land of course, which meant something needed to be done.

    “John Dudley, was a man who acquired much. Much of was ill gotten, he stole from those less fortunate than he and bribed others who were from better families. As such, his title has been declared forfeit but the issue of the land remains.” Mary said. “His sons are all young and not yet of an age to stake a full claim to all of it, however, we decided to allow his eldest son Jon to keep his father’s title of Viscount Lisle and the remaining lands and incomes therein. However, that leaves the question of what to do with the rest of the land. We would hear your thoughts on this matter.”

    As always, Edward spoke first. “Sire, I think that that land should remain part of the crown’s territories. When the surveyor returned from valuing it, he put it at some £3,000. That would be more than enough to help run the household and bolster other incomes without need of Parliament.”

    Mary considered that. The Parliament of her reign had met first shortly after she had been crowned Queen and had been a friendly one, passing the laws needed to persecute the outright heretics who called themselves Puritans, before being prorogued. She had recalled it on Edward’s advice to try John Dudley. But she suspected that if she did not call it again, it would not make much difference. “And what of those lands that Dudley acquired that once belonged the Mother Church? It would be a sin not to take those lands and given them back to the church.” She knew her duty as a Good Catholic.

    Edward seemed at a loss to this, but Cranmer, that man who had recanted his faith and had Edward to speak for him, as the only reason he had not burned at the stake, spoke then. “Your Majesty, I have been in contact with the Papal ambassador here, and His Holiness has said that he is willing to allow those lands to remain in the hands of the crown or whoever shall possess them next, for a small fee.”

    There was some coughing then. “How much is this small fee?” Mary asked, she suspected it might be some amount that would make the members of her council balk.

    “£200, Your Majesty.” Cranmer said.

    Mary raised an eyebrow. She suspected that there might be a catch to it, but she decided not to antagonise Cranmer unnecessarily. “Very well. We shall pay it.”

    “A wise decision, Sire.” Edward said then.

    There was a brief pause. As they all digested this information, then William Herbert, Earl of Pembroke spoke. “Sire, there is one matter I wished to bring to your attention.”

    “And what matter is that?” Mary asked. She liked Pembroke he spoke honestly and did not mince his words. It made a nice change.

    “The Scottish marriage. Your Majesty declared that Lady Jane would be treated as a member of the Royal Family. Therefore, that means she must be dowered as if she were a Princess. Consequently, I was thinking that perhaps some of the lands collected from others who supported Dudley, could be used as a dower for her.” Pembroke said.

    “It is a smart suggestion, Sire.” Edward said. “For it would then give the Scottish King lands in England, and ensure that he would need to keep on your good side so as not to lose them.”

    “It would also make him a vassal of us, and therefore ensure he would meddle in our affairs. We do not wish for that.” Mary responded.

    “Then perhaps Your Majesty would consent to selling the lands and using that money raised for the dower?” Pembroke asked.

    “How much are these lands valued at?” Mary asked.

    “Combined? £750.” Pembroke replied.

    “More than enough for a lower ranking Princess, Sire.” Edward said.

    “Then sell the lands to people who are loyal, and dower her accordingly.” Mary said.

    “Yes Your Majesty.” Edward said.

    With that Mary rose, and walked out of the chamber. She was feeling tired already and she’d only be active for less than a full sun’s turn.
     
  8. BlueFlowwer Well-Known Member

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    Oh Mary. My baby, ever hard at work. Luis better be there to rub her feets afterwards!
     
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  9. VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

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    Oh he’s doing a bit more than thay ;)
     
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  10. Threadmarks: Chapter 55: Considerations

    VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

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    Chapter 55: Considerations



    January, 1553


    “Sire, I must state that this offer from the French is one of the better ones that we have received in recent time.” The Earl of Arran said.

    James looked at the man and nearly sighed, he was so close to just snapping and telling the man to give it up. Instead, he simply asked. “And why do you say that?”

    “They are guaranteeing us free trade, protection of merchant ships coming from their developing colonies in the new world, and a foothold into their own markets within France itself. That is more than anyone else has ever offered us before.” Arran responded.

    “And all they want is for us to invade England when the declaration of war happens.” James said.

    “A small price to pay for something that could end up shaping and changing our entire fortune as a Kingdom.” Arran responded.

    James looked at Arran and wondered just how deep in the French King’s pocket he was. Oh, James knew there were members of his court who were deep in the English Queen’s pocket, but those were people he could control. Arran was a slippery customer at the best of times. “Do you think then that should we march southwards into England that we will get any support from the French? Did our father?”

    “Sire, with respect, His Majesty King James’s invasion was one that was ill thought out and cost Scotland her entire nobility. I do not think you are as hot headed as he was, and I do not think you would countenance such a disaster.” Arran said as respectfully as he could.

    James had to laugh he could tell Arran was desperate for this to happen. “We do suppose you are right in one sense, after all, the Duke of Guise will land with extra troops should we commit to this invasion. Though the French King does not say when.”

    It was at that point that the Earl of Errol spoke. “And that is why I think we should not ally with the French, Sire.”

    James looked at the man and raised an eyebrow. “Go on.” He commanded.

    “The Duke of Guise and his men would be inexperienced at the best of times, and if they come during the middle of the war, you can guarantee it would be at a moment that would benefit the French, not us. Realistically speaking, even with all the changes and reforms made to our army, we cannot hold off the English for as long as would be needed.” Errol said.

    “And whose fault is that?” Arran said suddenly. “Why, one might think it is the responsibility of the Lord High Constable to ensure that this is not the case.”

    Errol snapped back. “I cannot perform miracles, I am not God.” There was a brief pause and then. “Sire, the alliance with the English has been hard work in securing, they are guaranteeing us access to their markets and to their developing colonies also. We would be foolish to simply let that go. Furthermore, we would not need to risk sending men into a situation they cannot come out from. A good King knows when to fight and when to allow his people the chance to heal.”

    Arran spoke then. “Sire, that would be betraying the very purpose of being the King.”

    “You think our purpose is to wage war whenever the French declare it? That we are some sort of puppet?” James demanded.

    “No, Sire.” Arran said.

    “Good, because we would not tolerate such a thing. The betrothal has finally been agreed with England over Lady Jane Grey. We shall not squander that. No, we shall declare neutrality.” James decided.
     
  11. BlueFlowwer Well-Known Member

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    James is making good choices.
     
  12. VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

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    Indeed he is, but Arran's quite powerful and with him the French Faction are growing in power as well. So, James will have to be careful, especially if religious reforms stalls for any reason.
     
  13. Tyler96 Well-Known Member

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    Huh, I haven't previously come across the Earls of Errol.

    Though subsequently inquiry reveals I am acquainted with the family in the form of the young Lord Hay who died in the Waterloo campaign.
     
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  14. VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

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    They’re quite the family
     
  15. Threadmarks: Chapter 56: Pembroke's War

    VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

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    Chapter 56: Pembroke’s War



    April, 1553



    William straightened out his papers and looked at the Queen and Duke of Lancaster. This meeting was the last one they would have before troops were deployed to the continent to fight the French. William was looking forward to this war, it had been too long since they had last fought such a war and decimated the French. Something he was confident they could achieve this time around.

    He cleared his throat, and at a look from the Queen, spoke. “Your Majesties, the matter is simple. After analysing all the reports we have received from our sources on the continent, I think it is reasonable to expect that Henry of France will himself lead the attack on Calais and the Pale. The man is desperate to make up for the mistakes of his father, and is also desperate to show his people that the days of the French being defeated by us and the Spanish are at an end.”

    The Duke of Lancaster spoke then. “How many men would the King of France bring?” The man was very forthright and did not harbour any doubt, he’d spoken briefly during the first sitting of Parliament last month, and had gotten a standing ovation.

    “From all the reports, I would have to say he would bring 30,000 men including forty cannon. We currently have twelve cannon in Calais, and could bring another twenty safely by ship to Calais. However, we must look to fight this war without use of cannon.” William answered.

    “How do you mean?” The Duke of Lancaster asked.

    “Well, Your Royal Highness, the matter is simple really. Should the French bring their cannons to bear, we will lose. We cannot defeat them in gun fire, and we should rely on the Spanish coming to our aid this time around. Instead what we must do is force them into open field during the rainy season which is in a few weeks’ time. We must force them out into a situation where their cannons will not work. Then we can use our superior cavalry to bring them down to size.” William answered.

    “And you do not think that the French will suspect this?” The Duke of Lancaster asked. “After all, there are some very good commanders amongst their army.”

    “I do think that they might suspect this, but they will not act on their suspicions. Henry of France still dominates the thinking of the military, as King, and he will want to take us on head on.” William answered confidently.

    The Queen spoke then. “How can you be so sure?”

    “Because I have studied him, his way of movement, and the way he responds to problems. His immediate declaration of war on us and his offer to Scotland suggests he will come straight into the line of battle.” William said.

    The Queen said nothing, instead she looked to her husband who spoke. “Very well then, Lord Pembroke. You have given us your thoughts, now we shall give you ours.” William said nothing, merely waited. Eventually the Duke spoke. “We shall land at Calais, and we shall set up proper protections for the pale and the city itself. We shall then advance forward three miles, setting up proper defences once there. We shall then tempt the King of France into action, using the terrain to our advantage. This means we must immediately disembark, prepare and then execute our plan. We cannot let him scout ahead. Do you agree?”

    William thought briefly on the land of Calais and the other terrain around and nodded. “I do, Your Royal Highness.”

    “Good, then we are sorted. We shall leave in a day’s time.” The Duke said.

    With that the Queen waved a hand, William rose, bowed, straightened then left. Deep down he suspected the Duke would do more of the planning and leading once they were there, and he found that was only appropriate, being as the man was the Queen’s consort.
     
  16. BlueFlowwer Well-Known Member

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    I like Luis already.
     
  17. VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

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    Oh?
     
  18. Derek Pullem Butterfly Killer

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    Possibly the most "alternate" historical statement I've seen on this forum :hushedface::)
     
  19. VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

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    Lol is that a good or a bad thing
     
  20. Derek Pullem Butterfly Killer

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    Just takes a bit of getting used to - next you'll be talking about the "thin blue line" :eek::eek::eek:
     
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