Flower of Scotland.

Excellent work as always Fletcher. Given my (limited) knowledge of the period I can't add much but I wonder how long the SNP can last as a coherent force from this point. I would think that the more left-wing elements of the party would slowly migrate to Labour while the old Scotland Party elements would perhaps find themselves drawn to the Liberals and the Tories.

Keep it up!

:)
Next update will focus a wee bit on Norn Iron.

Also, ta very much :D
 
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07/01/1977
MOST SECRET
Office of the Prime Minister.
Bute House,
Edinburgh.

Ted,

Following our discussions over the issue of Northern Ireland, I am amenable to the meeting in Stranraer over the future of the Province, including all parties involved. At your behest, I have contacted several Loyalist politicians informally about a meeting. During the discussions with the UNP I mentioned that whilst this would not result in a united Ireland, as I have been informed by yourself, everything else would be on the table in a bid to end the terror. Only barrier which is common is that they will not discuss unless there is at least a ceasefire from the IRA.

This is a significant chance to end the terror. It cannot be missed. I urge you to once again contact McGuinness to check on the possibilities.

Willie.
**************************
The Daily Mail, London. 8th January, 1977.
Opinion. Exclusive article.

Documentation has emerged that the Prime Minister and representatives of the IRA have been holding secret talks over the future of Northern Ireland. England is experiencing the scourge of terrorism from Northern Ireland, from people who have no respect for democracy, no respect for fairness and no respect for human rights.

The fact remains that in Ulster, the majority wish to remain in the United Kingdom. They are British subjects through both choice and birth and yet these talks could well result in their birthright being sold down the river. This cannot, and must not be forgotten.

Quite how the relatives of the dead from bombings in London, Belfast, Londonderry, Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool will react to such a meeting with the terrorists is open to discussion. We suggest this is an outrage, and demand the talks cease.

Discussing peace is perfectly acceptable. The fact remains however that this can only be achieved by the end of the gun in Northern Irish politics.

Talks should only be held when the IRA lays down its arms.
 
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I'm starting this timeline again. I've not been happy with it, and have a few ideas to liven it up.

There have also been mistakes that have been staring me in the face.

  • I picked a Duchess as the heir to the Scottish Throne due to the changes in the Scottish succession laws. Princess Margaret, the Queens sister was born in Glamis, very much in Scotland.
  • I have the building work happening and escalating too quickly for the Scottish Central Bank.
  • I bring up social problems in Glasgow and then ignore them after the election.
  • With hindsight, creating the Ulster National Party was a mistake.
  • I've not done enough of English/Welsh politics, and am considering expanding it further afield(although only when required).
  • I'm not fully happy with the budget I put through from the SNP.
  • I mentioned trouble in Brixton and then ignore it.
All in all there are these and other issues I think I must work on. I also intend to bring photos into the timeline, although not excessively, as they can help illustrate the mood.

All help appreciated for the new timeline.
 
  • I picked a Duchess as the heir to the Scottish Throne due to the changes in the Scottish succession laws. Princess Margaret, the Queens sister was born in Glamis, very much in Scotland.
I've enjoyed this timeline, Sir. I look forward to the new version and am very curious as to what Duchess you are going to pick as Queen of Scotland. Since you live in Scotland, I know that you already know that none of Princess Margaret's kids carry the title of Duchess so you have my curiosity piqued.

Are you going to completely ditch the Windsors? Are you maybe going to go with the Buccleuchs, descendents of Charles II through the Duke of Monmouth?
 

cumbria

Banned
I'm starting this timeline again. I've not been happy with it, and have a few ideas to liven it up.

There have also been mistakes that have been staring me in the face.

  • I picked a Duchess as the heir to the Scottish Throne due to the changes in the Scottish succession laws. Princess Margaret, the Queens sister was born in Glamis, very much in Scotland.
  • I have the building work happening and escalating too quickly for the Scottish Central Bank.
  • I bring up social problems in Glasgow and then ignore them after the election.
  • With hindsight, creating the Ulster National Party was a mistake.
  • I've not done enough of English/Welsh politics, and am considering expanding it further afield(although only when required).
  • I'm not fully happy with the budget I put through from the SNP.
  • I mentioned trouble in Brixton and then ignore it.
All in all there are these and other issues I think I must work on. I also intend to bring photos into the timeline, although not excessively, as they can help illustrate the mood.

All help appreciated for the new timeline.

Few ideas for you.

With Ulster Vanguard and the DUP around it is likely that atleast one or both would campaign for an independent Ulster.
So I think the Ulster National Party bit was a good idea.

Many in Ulster at this point would support independence.

An interesting aspect would be the decline of the UUP with its more ardent wing joining the UNP and eventually a civil war in Ulster with Irish troops crossing the border to intervene.

Frank Hansfords-Miller's English National Party may start doing well at the time if Scotland leaves the union.

The National Front may well join the ENP.
John Tyndall National Front Chairman at the time said in the 1990's should Scotland leave the Union then the then BNP would become the ENP.
So we could be talking a party with 17,000 or so members getting some very good by-election results.
This of course would mean a Scottish National Front of around a 1000 members.

Here is a by-election list you will need.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Kingdom_by-elections_(1950–1979)

As you can see an English Nationalist NF or one merged with the ENP is going to get some huge results in Thurock, Walsall, Rotherham etc.

The Conservative Monday club may well turn fully to English Nationalism at this point.
You could see the return of Enoch Powell from Ulster with a new cause.
One things for sure Heath would be in a very vunerable possition.

It is just possible that Thorpes Liberals may well come out in favour of English Independence too.

The SNP definatly wouldnt join the EEC at the time.

You could see Irish parties standing in N Ireland.

I would think it is a good chance that the Scottish voting system would change to that of Ireland.

I would leave the monarchy aspect alone at that time.
I dont think any of the parties would have tampered with that aspect at that time.

Very good time line.

Ohh and add some pictures.
 
[/LIST]I've enjoyed this timeline, Sir. I look forward to the new version and am very curious as to what Duchess you are going to pick as Queen of Scotland. Since you live in Scotland, I know that you already know that none of Princess Margaret's kids carry the title of Duchess so you have my curiosity piqued.

Are you going to completely ditch the Windsors? Are you maybe going to go with the Buccleuchs, descendents of Charles II through the Duke of Monmouth?
I'm going to pick Margaret, the Queens sister. I picked Katharine Fraser, daughter of the Earl of Mar. This of course leads to issues over the succession, as Margarets children were born in London.

Another problem to solve.
cumbria said:
Few ideas for you.

With Ulster Vanguard and the DUP around it is likely that atleast one or both would campaign for an independent Ulster.
So I think the Ulster National Party bit was a good idea.

Many in Ulster at this point would support independence.

An interesting aspect would be the decline of the UUP with its more ardent wing joining the UNP and eventually a civil war in Ulster with Irish troops crossing the border to intervene.

Frank Hansfords-Miller's English National Party may start doing well at the time if Scotland leaves the union.

The National Front may well join the ENP.
John Tyndall National Front Chairman at the time said in the 1990's should Scotland leave the Union then the then BNP would become the ENP.
So we could be talking a party with 17,000 or so members getting some very good by-election results.
This of course would mean a Scottish National Front of around a 1000 members.
The problem isn't so much getting a party, there was a party iotl. The problem is making it a credible alternative. This means various changes, and I'm going to have to check up on more indivduals of the time on the issue.
The National Front may well join the ENP.
John Tyndall National Front Chairman at the time said in the 1990's should Scotland leave the Union then the then BNP would become the ENP.
So we could be talking a party with 17,000 or so members getting some very good by-election results.
This of course would mean a Scottish National Front of around a 1000 members.
Tbh, I doubt that without a voice in Parliament and/or voting reform that any fourth party could break through to win seats. A split in both the Tories and Labour is possible however. I haven't decided yet. The NF have as much chance in Scotland as I do of winning the lottery.

The Liberals are so small at this stage, they need their Welsh MPs. As such, talk of them coming out in favour of the end of the union is unlikely.
I would leave the monarchy aspect alone at that time.
I dont think any of the parties would have tampered with that aspect at that time.
The only reason its being touched at all in Scotland is Conservative fears over a republic being the result of the tide of nationalism, and the belief that seperating the crowns would ensure the monarchy survives.

It will not be touched anywhere else.
 

cumbria

Banned
Tbh, I doubt that without a voice in Parliament and/or voting reform that any fourth party could break through to win seats. A split in both the Tories and Labour is possible however. I haven't decided yet. The NF have as much chance in Scotland as I do of winning the lottery.

The point been they will get high enough votes in by-elections to frighten the main parties towards an English independence route.

The Liberals are so small at this stage, they need their Welsh MPs. As such, talk of them coming out in favour of the end of the union is unlikely.

The Liberals got 19% of the vote in the 1974 Oct election.
This was in their 1974 manifesto -

The Liberal Party believes in devolution, decentralisation and electoral reform. We favour the immediate implementation of the Kilbrandon recommendation to establish elected Parliaments in Scotland and Wales and to this effect a Bill has already been introduced into the House of Commons by Liberal MP, Jo Grimond.
In the long term we would establish a federal system of Government for the United Kingdom with power in domestic matters transferred to Parliaments in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and Provincial Assemblies in England. The Westminster Parliament would then become a Federal Parliament with a reformed second chamber in which the majority of members would be elected on a regional basis.

Now with Scotland gone they might well support an English parliament or even independence.
But it's a big "might".

The only reason its being touched at all in Scotland is Conservative fears over a republic being the result of the tide of nationalism, and the belief that seperating the crowns would ensure the monarchy survives.

The Queen becoming Queen of Scotland as she is the Queen of Canada and Australia would be more realistic.
 

cumbria

Banned
The problem isn't so much getting a party, there was a party iotl. The problem is making it a credible alternative. This means various changes, and I'm going to have to check up on more indivduals of the time on the issue.

William Craig could be your man.
He had just been kicked out of Vanguard and he wanted a lot of powers returning to Ulster.

vanguard72.gif



220px-Flag_of_the_Ulster_Nation.svg.png

Ulster-Scots flag.
 
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The Liberals got 19% of the vote in the 1974 Oct election.
This was in their 1974 manifesto -

The Liberal Party believes in devolution, decentralisation and electoral reform. We favour the immediate implementation of the Kilbrandon recommendation to establish elected Parliaments in Scotland and Wales and to this effect a Bill has already been introduced into the House of Commons by Liberal MP, Jo Grimond.
In the long term we would establish a federal system of Government for the United Kingdom with power in domestic matters transferred to Parliaments in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and Provincial Assemblies in England. The Westminster Parliament would then become a Federal Parliament with a reformed second chamber in which the majority of members would be elected on a regional basis.

Now with Scotland gone they might well support an English parliament or even independence.
But it's a big "might".
And in the '74 election, they won 13 seats. In the '75 election which has led to the break ittl, they do no better. If you take the Scottish seats awy, they need the Welsh members. I see no reason to change their federalist plans either.
The Queen becoming Queen of Scotland as she is the Queen of Canada and Australia would be more realistic.
And she would. Margaret would become regent and heir apparent to the Scottish throne.

Scotland is not Australia or Canada. The people would not accept the idea of a GG, you would be as well saying declare a republic now, and as such the option would either be appoint a regent or have a part-time head of state.

At the time, the Labour Party is pushing towards a republic along with a wing of the SNP. This has led to a fear factor developing amongst the monarchists. As such, declaring a regency and diverting the succession would be seen as a way of attempting to put the royals on the side of the nationalist wave, rather than in opposition to it.

I fail to see how this tactic would be unsound.
 
An independant Scotland is getting involved in the Troubles due to rise of Ulster nationalism!

I'm on the case!

Right well if a more liberal Scottish government is getting involved then might we also see the proposed "Irish dimension" that Thatcher refused? And if that happens then I think the Troubles may start to be a bit less troublesome, pun intended.

Also what about Scottish units in Ulster such as the Black Watch? Are they staying with the British army or are they vacating to Edinburgh? Or will they even form part of a force of Scottish peace keepers?

Also what are the chances of the UNP developing a more secular outlook? Say by having an influx of people like myself who are more concerned with independance than reunification? I know that it is largely bigot-dominated but I do think that it could turn slightly nicer if enough "not mental" people join.
Or we good even see some of the radical members of tge Alliance party adopting it, unlikely though as there is no such thing as a radical Alliance member.
 
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cumbria

Banned
And in the '74 election, they won 13 seats. In the '75 election which has led to the break ittl, they do no better. If you take the Scottish seats awy, they need the Welsh members. I see no reason to change their federalist plans either.

And she would. Margaret would become regent and heir apparent to the Scottish throne.

Scotland is not Australia or Canada. The people would not accept the idea of a GG, you would be as well saying declare a republic now, and as such the option would either be appoint a regent or have a part-time head of state.

At the time, the Labour Party is pushing towards a republic along with a wing of the SNP. This has led to a fear factor developing amongst the monarchists. As such, declaring a regency and diverting the succession would be seen as a way of attempting to put the royals on the side of the nationalist wave, rather than in opposition to it.

I fail to see how this tactic would be unsound.

Yes sounds like it could work.
 

cumbria

Banned
And in the '74 election, they won 13 seats. In the '75 election which has led to the break ittl, they do no better. If you take the Scottish seats awy, they need the Welsh members. I see no reason to change their federalist plans either.

And she would. Margaret would become regent and heir apparent to the Scottish throne.

Scotland is not Australia or Canada. The people would not accept the idea of a GG, you would be as well saying declare a republic now, and as such the option would either be appoint a regent or have a part-time head of state.

At the time, the Labour Party is pushing towards a republic along with a wing of the SNP. This has led to a fear factor developing amongst the monarchists. As such, declaring a regency and diverting the succession would be seen as a way of attempting to put the royals on the side of the nationalist wave, rather than in opposition to it.

I fail to see how this tactic would be unsound.

Will Scotland be adopting the STV voting system?
 
An independant Scotland is getting involved in the Troubles due to rise of Ulster nationalism!

I'm on the case!

Right well if a more liberal Scottish government is getting involved then might we also see the proposed "Irish dimension" that Thatcher refused? And if that happens then I think the Troubles may start to be a bit less troublesome, pun intended.

Also what about Scottish units in Ulster such as the Black Watch? Are they staying with the British army or are they vacating to Edinburgh? Or will they even form part of a force of Scottish peace keepers?

Also what are the chances of the UNP developing a more secular outlook? Say by having an influx of people like myself who are more concerned with independance than reunification? I know that it is largely bigot-dominated but I do think that it could turn slightly nicer if enough "not mental" people join.
Any help appreciated. If you have any personalities that could cross the divide etc. would be great.
cumbria said:
Will Scottish Conservatives be campaigning to join the EEC?
Yes.
Will Scotland be adopting the STV voting system?
FPTP at the moment. May change later on.
 

cumbria

Banned
Any help appreciated. If you have any personalities that could cross the divide etc. would be great.

Yes.

FPTP at the moment. May change later on.

It is interesting to see both the Conservatives and Liberals in Scotland will be campaigning for EEC membership.
Yet Labour and the SNP will be against.
I assume both are against Nato membership too.
 
What's the long term future of the SNP? Will they decide to stay on as opposition to Labour, maybe becoming the SDP or something? Or will they fracture into Labour and the Conservatives now that there's no real reason holding them together?
 
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