Flower of France

Due to writers block I have temporarily halted my other tls. However this tl has been researched and is my newest TL. Basically in this tl ottoman invasion of Balerics during italian wars succeeds much earlier. England does not intervene, cosimo is defeated and habsburgs are crushed by france.
Anyway hope you like it.
Italian war of 1551-1554


1552

Henry II aligns hmself with Protestant german nations
Ottoman empire succesfully raids into balerics, phips forces are crushed by july the balerics are under ottoman control
French troops make advances into lorriane capturing metz and many important german cities, at verdun disastor struck the habsburgs when Philip himself died of a stray musket bullet which pierced his chest.
With philips death habsburgs fall into chaos
England declares strict neutrality in this war
1553
Cosimo Medici is defeated in tuscany and executed, tuscany falls
Meanwhile the republic of venice siezes the oppurtunity as it ally’s with france and invades tirol. Austria is caught by surprise as 20k venezian troops invade Austria.
Tirol falls by June
Meanwhile a combined Venezian-ottoman-french navy decimates the Spanish navy of the battle of the adriatic sea.
French troops invade Naples from the north, Ottoman troops invade Naples from the south, trapped and facing overwelhming armies Naples falls to the combined Franco-Ottoman army.
The regent for the young king Carlos II von Habsburg Maria his mother sues for peace with France, Venice and Ottomans, cede to france the naples and the other italian possestions and the neitherlands to france. Austria cedes tirol and styria to venice. Carlos pays 500k spanish dollars to Ottomans.. The treaty of chambourd is signed ending the italian wars.
The war is a complete victory for Henry II.
Carlos licks his wounds plotting against the french
However with the loss of neitherlands internal turmoil racks spain. Not since 742 had a muslim power retaken such an part of Spain. The local populace grow restless and blame the loss on the Habsburgs
1554
Suleiman the magnificent starts wars in persia
Increased Franco ottoman cooperation
Soon french markets are opened up in the ottoman empire and trade starts to flourish
Meanwhile Mary I Tudor who had just overthrown her cousin Jane grey Edwards successor looks at growing events with distrust.
Mary I Soon forms closer ties with the HRE. However Carlos situation in Spain is precarious. Many German state start to question habsburg supremacy.
While this is occurring France continues to uphold its alliance with the Ottomans.





Well this is what I have so far what do you think.
 
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:eek:

This isn't a period I know intimately, but it sounds...hard to believe.

For starters, a naval arms race in this era...well...

Let me put it this way. Study how kings got money.
 
I have to agree with Elfwine. An arms race isn't feasible in this era. For one thing, France can massively outproduce England, the only limiting factor being that France has a lot more wars and enemies to face so it can't afford to give England that much attention, honestly. England is still fairly small-fry to France, in the greater scheme of things. For the other, neither country can afford an arms race - this is still the era when permanent armies are treated as a curiosity, and England doesn't have one.

Also, for the record, Henry VIII was dead in 1552, and the term you were looking for is "English navy", not "British navy". I think the fully independent Kingdom of Scotland would be quite offended at the Tudors making a "British navy".
 
I have to agree with Elfwine. An arms race isn't feasible in this era. For one thing, France can massively outproduce England, the only limiting factor being that France has a lot more wars and enemies to face so it can't afford to give England that much attention, honestly. England is still fairly small-fry to France, in the greater scheme of things. For the other, neither country can afford an arms race - this is still the era when permanent armies are treated as a curiosity, and England doesn't have one.

Also, for the record, Henry VIII was dead in 1552, and the term you were looking for is "English navy", not "British navy". I think the fully independent Kingdom of Scotland would be quite offended at the Tudors making a "British navy".
Anout Naval arms race. not literally, its only just a minor one.
Also the HRE was at this time very rich from its gold, SPain was at the height of its power, thus it could afford to pay 1 million francs.
About England-Britain srry I always mix up the two names:eek:
Oh by 1552 if Henry is dead than Mary is the current ENglish ruler, srry about the mistake.
ABout permanent armies in this tl no such thing yet excists, french troops were basically mercinaries.
However I agree an arms race is impossible i will edit that.:)
ANy other concerns
 
Several.

For instance, the HRE is not "very rich" in any meaningful sense. Yes it has a lot of income. Look at its expenditures.

Meanwhile, why is Philip in Verdun?

How does Venice raise 20,000 troops capable of seizing Tyrol so quickly?

Why is the Spanish navy fighting in the Adriatic?

Is Henry II in a position to do this?
 
Several.

For instance, the HRE is not "very rich" in any meaningful sense. Yes it has a lot of income. Look at its expenditures.

Meanwhile, why is Philip in Verdun?

How does Venice raise 20,000 troops capable of seizing Tyrol so quickly?

Why is the Spanish navy fighting in the Adriatic?

Is Henry II in a position to do this?
About Venice, well they bought a mercenary army
Henry II was in a position because in otl he fought the war against Hapsburg on 3 fronts. Basicvally france fought everywhere;)
Phip realized he needed to stop Henry II and capture Henry II so he can humiliate France like how his father captured Francis I
Spain Controlled Naples and Sicily thus in order to prevent Ottoman-french navy from invading Naples, Spanish ships sailed into the med.
 
Maybe i'm a ignorant, but i don't understand who is "Philip III"...:confused:

Presumably Philip II's son, though if its from that branch, it shouldn't be von Habsburg. Or maybe its from the Austrian branch. Or maybe Alexius is pulling this out of his...fertile imagination...like the rest of this timeline.
 
Presumably Philip II's son, though if its from that branch, it shouldn't be von Habsburg. Or maybe its from the Austrian branch. Or maybe Alexius is pulling this out of his...fertile imagination...like the rest of this timeline.
Srry This was the guy I meant, I mistook him for Phip III Charles youngest son.:eek:
This is the guy I mean
Carlos, Prince of Asturias, his mother Maria is the regent, fixed edit also maria survives in this tl, in otl she diesd giving childbirth
 
I like this timeline, nice start! Yes, a bit general, and its inconsistencies have been mentioned, but I definitely think you should continue.
Scipio
 
Anout Naval arms race. not literally, its only just a minor one.
Also the HRE was at this time very rich from its gold, SPain was at the height of its power, thus it could afford to pay 1 million francs.

Ahh, my dear Alexius, you have made the classic mistake. Being at the height of your power does not equal being rich. In fact, it commonly equates to being poor. During the reign of Philip II of Spain (1556-98), Spain was at war for all but 6 months of his reign, and this cost a monumental amount of money. In fact, it cost so much money that Spain was extremely poor in terms of what money it had available. Spain declared bankruptcy four times during Philip II's reign, and wasn't so much better off during Charles I's reign before Philip. They could afford to pay 1 million francs, but only if they were desperate. They didn't have that kind of money to simply splash around liberally. Also, the Balearics were not just a possession, they were part of Spain itself. To give away the Balearics to the hated Muslim enemy would cause massive civil unrest in Spain, and Europe. After all, the Muslims had been on the defensive in western Europe since the Battle of Toulon in 792, or so the European legends like to portray it. Spain would offer anything it had to offer before giving away part of its own country to the Muslims, and to be honest the Muslims were not so unreasonable as to demand huge amounts. What is more, if the Balearics became Ottoman, the Ottomans have just got a naval base so close to Spain that they can destroy Spanish trade and communications, and Spain and the Hapsburg empire relied on ships in the Med. Basically, if they give away the Balearics, Spain will fall apart. Will fall apart. It will collapse as a major power and lose all of its territories. It's only a matter of time.

About England-Britain srry I always mix up the two names:eek:
Oh by 1552 if Henry is dead than Mary is the current ENglish ruler, srry about the mistake.

No probs on the name confusion. It gets even harder when you remember that, up until the early 20th century, "England" was a legitimate term used to mean "UK" during the years when England and Scotland (and Ireland) were united together.

As for Mary - actually, no. Well, almost. The ruler of England at the start of this TL is Edward VI of England. Then he dies in, IIRC August of 1553 (it's definitely 1553, anyway), attempts to place his cousin Jane Grey on the throne as his dying wish, and THEN after that fails in September 1553 Mary takes the throne.

ABout permanent armies in this tl no such thing yet excists, french troops were basically mercinaries.
However I agree an arms race is impossible i will edit that.:)
ANy other concerns

Actually, in this era France was unique in having its own permanent army, and they were not mercenaries. England only had militia, which were not paid so they were not counted as a standing army, but called up men to serve during times of war to bolster its forces. Mercenaries were more commonly used in Central Europe in this era than in Western Europe.
 
Ahh, my dear Alexius, you have made the classic mistake. Being at the height of your power does not equal being rich. In fact, it commonly equates to being poor. During the reign of Philip II of Spain (1556-98), Spain was at war for all but 6 months of his reign, and this cost a monumental amount of money. In fact, it cost so much money that Spain was extremely poor in terms of what money it had available. Spain declared bankruptcy four times during Philip II's reign, and wasn't so much better off during Charles I's reign before Philip. They could afford to pay 1 million francs, but only if they were desperate. They didn't have that kind of money to simply splash around liberally. Also, the Balearics were not just a possession, they were part of Spain itself. To give away the Balearics to the hated Muslim enemy would cause massive civil unrest in Spain, and Europe. After all, the Muslims had been on the defensive in western Europe since the Battle of Toulon in 792, or so the European legends like to portray it. Spain would offer anything it had to offer before giving away part of its own country to the Muslims, and to be honest the Muslims were not so unreasonable as to demand huge amounts. What is more, if the Balearics became Ottoman, the Ottomans have just got a naval base so close to Spain that they can destroy Spanish trade and communications, and Spain and the Hapsburg empire relied on ships in the Med. Basically, if they give away the Balearics, Spain will fall apart. Will fall apart. It will collapse as a major power and lose all of its territories. It's only a matter of time.



No probs on the name confusion. It gets even harder when you remember that, up until the early 20th century, "England" was a legitimate term used to mean "UK" during the years when England and Scotland (and Ireland) were united together.

As for Mary - actually, no. Well, almost. The ruler of England at the start of this TL is Edward VI of England. Then he dies in, IIRC August of 1553 (it's definitely 1553, anyway), attempts to place his cousin Jane Grey on the throne as his dying wish, and THEN after that fails in September 1553 Mary takes the throne.



Actually, in this era France was unique in having its own permanent army, and they were not mercenaries. England only had militia, which were not paid so they were not counted as a standing army, but called up men to serve during times of war to bolster its forces. Mercenaries were more commonly used in Central Europe in this era than in Western Europe.
1) Wow OK Ill edit that part of the post
2) So I want Spain to crumble, by giving up Baelarics Spain is virtually screwed, Philip can do little else or face complete french invasion of Spanish proper. If Spain falls so be it. Either way Philip is screwed badly. Meanwhile France is overjoyed at the internal turmoil of the Hapsburgs it most bitter enemies.
Anyway hope I answered your questions:)
 
I think they'll have to lose in the Netherlands. The argument toward keeping them was that if they didn't, the Hapsburg possession in the north would be taken. Very much a fight them there or fight them there. But if it's the Balearics they have to have those--and without active French support I don't see how the Ottomans hold them. The population is going to be mega-hostile and the Algerians were vassals not a province in deed.

So they keep the Balearics but lose the Netherlands because of spending resources there at the beginning of the really big unrest there. You want to kill imperial Spain, well losing the Netherlands will do that because it really would make the Hapsburg Burgundian lands ready for the plucking. In this way France might be in a position to gain control of the HRE if you want to France-wank. Austria might also be fucked.
 
I think they'll have to lose in the Netherlands. The argument toward keeping them was that if they didn't, the Hapsburg possession in the north would be taken. Very much a fight them there or fight them there. But if it's the Balearics they have to have those--and without active French support I don't see how the Ottomans hold them. The population is going to be mega-hostile and the Algerians were vassals not a province in deed.

So they keep the Balearics but lose the Netherlands because of spending resources there at the beginning of the really big unrest there. You want to kill imperial Spain, well losing the Netherlands will do that because it really would make the Hapsburg Burgundian lands ready for the plucking. In this way France might be in a position to gain control of the HRE if you want to France-wank. Austria might also be fucked.
Fine then the Ottomans will recieve Sicily???
 
Fine then the Ottomans will recieve Sicily???

Is the Ottomans gaining land a necessity for you TL? If not, I advise that the Ottomans just take a very hefty payment in war indemnities. Whether you want Spain to crumble or not, the simple fact is that Christian nations would not cede land willingly to the Muslim states unless there was literally nothing they could do otherwise. In the Balkans and with the Muslim march overland towards Austria it was different, as the Ottomans could simply refuse to retreat their armies, but when we are talking islands and land that the Ottomans do not have a land connection to, they can be starved out, chased out, or otherwise their position is not secure enough to demand the land. Consequently, land shouldn't be given up like that unless Christendom literally has nothing else to offer - and at the moment it is nowhere near that desperate.
 
Is the Ottomans gaining land a necessity for you TL? If not, I advise that the Ottomans just take a very hefty payment in war indemnities. Whether you want Spain to crumble or not, the simple fact is that Christian nations would not cede land willingly to the Muslim states unless there was literally nothing they could do otherwise. In the Balkans and with the Muslim march overland towards Austria it was different, as the Ottomans could simply refuse to retreat their armies, but when we are talking islands and land that the Ottomans do not have a land connection to, they can be starved out, chased out, or otherwise their position is not secure enough to demand the land. Consequently, land shouldn't be given up like that unless Christendom literally has nothing else to offer - and at the moment it is nowhere near that desperate.
Ok I will edit
 
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