Flanders survives!

whit a POD in the middle ages, what would it be like for the County of Flanders to remain independent. Would it countinue to be just a county, wich regions would it have, ... Also, in case it would manage to continue to remain independent for a long time, wich effect would it have on Napoleon's empire, the belgian revolution, the first and sewond world war.
 
whit a POD in the middle ages, what would it be like for the County of Flanders to remain independent. Would it countinue to be just a county, wich regions would it have, ... Also, in case it would manage to continue to remain independent for a long time, wich effect would it have on Napoleon's empire, the belgian revolution, the first and sewond world war.

Well I don't think Flanders would remain a county for a long time. Eventually it will become a Duchy and a rich one at that. I could also Flanders entering the colonial race and having colonies in the Americas and Asia. Assuming Napoleon and all that doesn't get butterflied away. Flanders becomes a puppet republic of France ala Netherlands. In 1815 it becoems a Kingdom of Flanders. Belgium doesn't exist in this TL instead there is a Wallon state as well. In WW1 and 2 it is a part of the allies and there are one of the countries invaded by Nazi Germany. Eventually Flanders will be one of the founding members of the EEC and one of its most prosperous nations. Capital will be Antewerpen.
 
Not controlling the [taxable] wealth of Flanders severely hinders the rise of Burgundy, with consequent butterflies.
 
Not controlling the [taxable] wealth of Flanders severely hinders the rise of Burgundy, with consequent butterflies.

Maybe Burgundy doesn't escape France's clutch in the 100 Years War. This could probably lead to a stronger France in the long run.
 
whit a POD in the middle ages, what would it be like for the County of Flanders to remain independent. Would it countinue to be just a county, wich regions would it have, ... Also, in case it would manage to continue to remain independent for a long time, wich effect would it have on Napoleon's empire, the belgian revolution, the first and sewond world war.

"Remains" independent? It would necessit Flanders to have been independent in first place during Middle-Ages. Thy actually had a large autonomy from french kings, but never managed to get out of their suzerainty.

And that's the core of the problem, Flanders didn't had the capacity to be "independent" (as much this word is...anachronistic) as England, France or Norway were. But it could get "autonomous" for a longer time.


A carolingian Burgundy-like kingdom is unlikely, because while Provence wasn't really important, all the region between Seine and Rhine was for carolingians. It would be likely crushed easily.

So we'll have still a County of Flanders as base.

If we're talking of Flanders proper, and not any "state" situated in the same territory, a good POD is probably the "Bruges Matins" where Flemish elites managed to put out french garrison. But it would be hard to keep french kings out of there (as OTL showed) as they had both legitimacy and force to enforce their claim.

And eventually, Flanders would have likely fall into English suzerainty (didn't the Counts recognized Edward III as their suzerain in the beggining of HYW, after all?) for economic reasons : exportation of their tissues production and need of english wool.

Finally, Napoleon, Belgian revolution, etc. would have likely been butterflied by the POD.
 
Belgium doesn't exist in this TL instead there is a Wallon state as well.
So what happens to Belgian Brabant, Limburg and Luxemburg? Did the Duchy of Brabant and the duchy of Luxemburg stay independent as well? Or did Flanders annex all of that?

In WW1 and 2 it is a part of the allies
In WWI Belgium only became one of the allies because Germany passed through it to attack France. Belgium has no intentions of fighting the Germans. But with Belgium not existing Germany doesn't need to pass through Flanders to attack France from the North. They only need to pass through Brabant and the Walloon state

Capital will be Antewerpen.
Antwerpen is part of Brabant, not of Flanders. Even in case that Flanders annexes Brabant, the obvious choice would be Brussel firstly, Leuven secondly and then Antwerp for an new capital.
 
"Remains" independent? It would necessit Flanders to have been independent in first place during Middle-Ages. Thy actually had a large autonomy from french kings, but never managed to get out of their suzerainty.

well actually, we learn in history lessons in Belgium that the County of Flanders was independent for a small period during the franco-flemish war. But eventually the French won...


And eventually, Flanders would have likely fall into English suzerainty (didn't the Counts recognized Edward III as their suzerain in the beggining of HYW, after all?) for economic reasons : exportation of their tissues production and need of english wool.

Well if it fell under English suzerainty would it eventually regain its indenpendance? It could become an Commonwealth maybee? Or there could be an revolution in the 19th century à la Belgian and Greek revolution? Or it could gain its independance after WWI, like Ireland?
 
Have Edward III inherit Hainaut I think the English are more attached to the low countries, I am not sure how it would happen.
 
Have Edward III inherit Hainaut I think the English are more attached to the low countries, I am not sure how it would happen.

You could also have the English and the Flemish sing an alliance in the 100 year war. The conquest of Northern France would go a lot fatser with the Flemish conquering it and the English could maintain there control over Aquitaine.
 
well actually, we learn in history lessons in Belgium that the County of Flanders was independent for a small period during the franco-flemish war. But eventually the French won...
Well, it's "independent" from a point of view, as any land in rebellion can be considered as such.

The cause of its war were the local elites calling their suzerain, Philippe IV, against the Count that they felt abusing his powers.

Count of Flanders didn't fought that for Flemish independency than for keeping the king away : he basically changed of suzerain by acknowledging the HREmperor instead of Philippe IV.


Well if it fell under English suzerainty would it eventually regain its indenpendance? It could become an Commonwealth maybee? Or there could be an revolution in the 19th century à la Belgian and Greek revolution? Or it could gain its independance after WWI, like Ireland?

To say it simply : in feudal age, you can't just say "I'm independent and without suzerain". Because if you do so, your own vassals would be entiteled to do the same with you.

And for Commonwealth...I'm afraid that such changes would have effects. It would butterfly away many things we know about British development up to and including "Commonwealth" system.
 
To say it simply : in feudal age, you can't just say "I'm independent and without suzerain". Because if you do so, your own vassals would be entiteled to do the same with you.
There you have a good point. How about a POD during the 100 year war? The English could grant indenpendance to Flanders as an award for their help in the war against France. The Flemish army could invade from the nord and the English from Aquitaine and Normandy. could that be possible?
 
There you have a good point. How about a POD during the 100 year war? The English could grant indenpendance to Flanders as an award for their help in the war against France. The Flemish army could invade from the nord and the English from Aquitaine and Normandy. could that be possible?
Even assuming that somehow Flanders officially becomes a vassal of England, at least as far as both parties are concerned, granting independence is alien to the time period, they likely wouldn't even think of the possibility. Large autonomy with mostly symbolic sovereignty ties, yes, outright independence, no.

And a Flemish army likely won't change that much in the HYW, Flanders isn't that large after all. And the city militias can't really go on campaign in France either, they are needed to keep the economy running!
 
There you have a good point. How about a POD during the 100 year war? The English could grant indenpendance to Flanders as an award for their help in the war against France. The Flemish army could invade from the nord and the English from Aquitaine and Normandy. could that be possible?

I'm actually not sure giving independence to the only region that acknowledged you as King of France would be a good political move.

And Flanders were...really divided regarding the policy to follow. The count was more pro-french but Edward threatened to stop the economical ties with Flanders (that kind of needed the english import/export). Edward had to use a local as real ruler to avoid change of alliance.

Usually the counts were more suspicious against Plantagenet because "Hey, a yahoo claim a title that is not his own. How can supporting him would ever backfire?" and that because the too great economical power of England on Flanders didn't needed to be expanded to political sphere.

And, I'm not sure about how a power can "grant independence" there. Are you meaning real indepence without suzerainty? Because it would be REALLY unlkikely.

If it's independence de facto, on the other hand, possible, but not likely in OTL conditions.
 
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