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Flag Thread IV
- Thread starter Pragmatic Progressive
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Fairly nice. Needs the ring shifted so it's the same distance from each side but looks good.Flag of the American Khanate.
Here's my prospective national flag for my Kingdom of Manticore. It's a Nordic Cross (the Cross of Saint Philip) in gold on a white field. If this flag is adopted in the late 19th century, the Nordic cross could represent cultural unity with other Nordic countries, although there would not be any direct connection to the Danish flag's peculiar display of the Cross. The colors represent the unification of the six (or maybe eight or nine) different ethnolinguistic groups of Manticore in their common Catholic faith.
The golden cross is commonly used to represent visions of a Cross in the sky seen by leaders before great victories. Considering the nature of Manticore, the inclusion of a Cross in the national flag is essentially nonnegotiable. However, the Nordic Cross specifically may be problematic, either as an anachronism or due to the gap between the Manticoran Norse and the modern Scandinavians. I have another version of the flag using the Cross of Saint George. The combination of the particular Cross and the colors could be a general reference to Manticore's Catholicism or a more specific reference to the English origins of the Royal House of Manticore.
As far as timing, gold and white only became the clerical colors of the Church in the 19th century. Before that, the colors of the Papal States were gold and red. The Kalmar Union used those colors in a Nordic Cross flag, but reversing them with a gold cross on a red field gives us a different option.
The problem now is that the gold cross on red is also the flag of Scania, which mixed the Swedish and Danish flags as inspiration, of the Swedish minority in Finland, and of Nasjonal Samling.
The gold cross on white seems to present itself as a good option because I have yet to find any use of that specific combination anywhere except for the Skolkan Empire and some its descendant nations invented by NATO training materials in the mid-2000s. I don't know which of these, if any, is the actual Skolkan flag but the one on the right is the flag of Torrike, which is the largest and most powerful of the countries that emerged from the dissolution of the Skolkan Empire. The flag on the left is that of Framland, which is the most "Europeanized" of the Skolkan nations.
The province of Norrland in Sweden uses a gold cross on white, but in a tricolor Nordic cross format with a blue border separating the cross and the field. I have only seen the white cross on gold field in two flags, of the Roman Catholic Cathedral of Saint Erik in Stockholm and of Stavropol Krai in Russia.
Can anyone here think of any other instances of flags with gold crosses on white fields or white crosses on gold fields? I'm talking not just about real-world flags but any fictional flags that I may not want associated with my Manticore AU.
The golden cross is commonly used to represent visions of a Cross in the sky seen by leaders before great victories. Considering the nature of Manticore, the inclusion of a Cross in the national flag is essentially nonnegotiable. However, the Nordic Cross specifically may be problematic, either as an anachronism or due to the gap between the Manticoran Norse and the modern Scandinavians. I have another version of the flag using the Cross of Saint George. The combination of the particular Cross and the colors could be a general reference to Manticore's Catholicism or a more specific reference to the English origins of the Royal House of Manticore.
As far as timing, gold and white only became the clerical colors of the Church in the 19th century. Before that, the colors of the Papal States were gold and red. The Kalmar Union used those colors in a Nordic Cross flag, but reversing them with a gold cross on a red field gives us a different option.
The problem now is that the gold cross on red is also the flag of Scania, which mixed the Swedish and Danish flags as inspiration, of the Swedish minority in Finland, and of Nasjonal Samling.
The gold cross on white seems to present itself as a good option because I have yet to find any use of that specific combination anywhere except for the Skolkan Empire and some its descendant nations invented by NATO training materials in the mid-2000s. I don't know which of these, if any, is the actual Skolkan flag but the one on the right is the flag of Torrike, which is the largest and most powerful of the countries that emerged from the dissolution of the Skolkan Empire. The flag on the left is that of Framland, which is the most "Europeanized" of the Skolkan nations.
The province of Norrland in Sweden uses a gold cross on white, but in a tricolor Nordic cross format with a blue border separating the cross and the field. I have only seen the white cross on gold field in two flags, of the Roman Catholic Cathedral of Saint Erik in Stockholm and of Stavropol Krai in Russia.
Can anyone here think of any other instances of flags with gold crosses on white fields or white crosses on gold fields? I'm talking not just about real-world flags but any fictional flags that I may not want associated with my Manticore AU.
Those flags are rare. This is because light colours on light colours get hard to see at a distance with any clarity and tend to blur together. So they only tend to get used where there's significance that outweighs that i.e. religion or where the yellow is actually faded red and kept due to tradition.
I mean, the Kingdom of Jerusalem was a crusader state which may not be up your alley, they had a yellow cross on white, but that was a cross with crosslets and I don't think anyone would associate your flag with it nor is it anything terrible on the level of the Nazis.
Mariana Islands Republic
Mariana Islands Republic national flag from TL-797
----
Excerpts from an MSSE dossier [1], based on information collected by the MIEC [2] of the IDA [3]:
"TL-797 shows some divergences in Oceania's geopolitics during the course of the 20th century, particularly after the second world war.
Similarly to TL-75 [4] and a variety of other timelines, the United States liberated the island of Guam from Japanese forces during the second world war. Soon after, the island became closely associated with the United States as an overseas territory, particularly for its strategic importance as a naval and aerial base in the western Pacific. However, unlike in TL-75, a local movement towards Guam autonomy or even outright independence took off years sooner, already during the late 1940s and early 1950s, among the Chamorro of Guam. The United States government had a relatively ambivalent attitude to these local efforts, but avoided antagonising the native population, as they couldn't afford to lose their trust easily. Given the post-war legal provisions, it was still legally possible for Guam to avoid becoming a permanent part of the United States, as an associated territory.
The situation in the Northern Marianas, to the north of Guam, was similar. Though the Chamorro people of the Northern Marianas were fairly satisfied with US economic and defence support and grateful for it, there had always been a more autonomy-minded streak to the Northern Mariana natives. Emboldened by the autonomy and independence activists in Guam, a grassroots pro-independence movement sprung up in the Northern Marianas during the course of the 1950s. The relationship of the Northern Marianas to the United States was even looser and more lenient than that of Guam, with the US administering the Marianas as a de facto democratic protectorate under the aegis of the United Nations. This gave the Marianas independence movement enough necessary manoeuvering space to push for referenda on unification with Guam, and later referenda on granting the territory a more autonomous status, more loosely associated with the US. This was to be a stepping stone towards full independence.
The first decisive moves towards independence, both by the local campaigners of Guam and the local campaigners of the Northern Marianas - now in regular mutual contact - were taken during the course of the 1960s and 1970s, in a series of local referenda every few years, with US and UN oversight to prevent potential electoral fraud or disruptions. During official negotiations before the referenda, a compromise was reached with the United States government, allowing the Northern Marianas independence as either two separate countries or a united country (of the Marianas archipelago), while the United States was allowed to loan the territory of the existing naval bases for the following century and require an associated/allied state status with the newly independent Marianas. Though many in the US government suspected the referenda would not be too successful, they were in for a series of shock referenda victories for the pro-independence and Guam-NM political unification campaigners.
The eventual result of all these pro-independence efforts was the formation of the Mariana Islands Republic, also known colloquially as the "Chamorro Republic", after the main, native nationality of the Marianas archipelago. Independence was officially declared on the 17th April 1977.
Ever since achieving its full independence, the Mariana Islands Republic has used the flag presented above, officially adopted in 1980. Fifteen alternating blue and white stripes, mirrored in each of the two halves of the flag, represent the total number of large islands in the archipelago (fifteen, including Guam). The circular seal style emblem represents the green shores of the individual islands, washed by the foaming blue-and-white waters of the Pacific. At the centre, with a blue background, stand two argent latte stones, a famous feature of traditional Chamorro architecture from an older period of Marianas history. These are topped by a simple conical roof of a native structure, symbolising the society of the Marianas as "one united, mutual house for all". The structure is based on the various native buildings, both practical and religious, that used to be constructed atop the latte stones in prior centuries, before the architectural practice fell out of common use. The conical shape of the roof of the structure is also reminescent of the conical, mountainous shape of many of the mountainous and verdant islands of the Marianas.
(It is said that the stripes of the US national flag and the "bedsheet and a seal" US state flags were an influence on the flag designers of the MIR, but they decided to go about things their own way, rather than slavishly imitate their loose inspirations. Some advisors to the Mariana Islands vexilological committee apparently lobbied for putting fifteen stars on the flag, but this was shot down, as many in the comittee felt that stars are already overused on the national flags of Pacific Ocean countries and territories, and would also seem too US-inspired. Some people had also lobbied for the inclusion of a fourth colour, either golden or yellow, but this was rejected, as it was felt that less is more in terms of colour, and green, white and blue had a simple, natural and soothing quality to them.)"
----
Notes:
[1] - Multiverse Sociopolitical Survey Expedition
[2] - Multiverse Institute Exploration Corps
[3] - InterDimensional Alliance (a sort of multiversal UN/NATO)
[4] - OTL
Yeah, I don't like the OTL official flags of the Northern Marianas and Guam. The latter is just groanworthy, and the former would be actually quite good if it lost that bighuge star at the centre. I think it basically ruins what would be an otherwise decent flag, obscuring the latte stone that's meant to be an unmistakenable Marianas reference. Pity they designed it this way, some earlier designs didn't have that overbearing star that makes the flag look far too busy and layered. I wanted to get rid of the lame Guam flag and improve upon the NM flag, so in one fell swoop, I killed two birds with one stone, and here's the result. No stars, whether just one or several, a fairly original layout, and hard to mistake for any other national flag out there, whether in Oceania or other parts of the world.
Also, my first contest entry ever, eight years and some three months ago, was a flag with a Pacific Ocean theme, so you could say I'm finally revisiting my roots as a contestant in the Weekly Flag Challenge.
----
Excerpts from an MSSE dossier [1], based on information collected by the MIEC [2] of the IDA [3]:
"TL-797 shows some divergences in Oceania's geopolitics during the course of the 20th century, particularly after the second world war.
Similarly to TL-75 [4] and a variety of other timelines, the United States liberated the island of Guam from Japanese forces during the second world war. Soon after, the island became closely associated with the United States as an overseas territory, particularly for its strategic importance as a naval and aerial base in the western Pacific. However, unlike in TL-75, a local movement towards Guam autonomy or even outright independence took off years sooner, already during the late 1940s and early 1950s, among the Chamorro of Guam. The United States government had a relatively ambivalent attitude to these local efforts, but avoided antagonising the native population, as they couldn't afford to lose their trust easily. Given the post-war legal provisions, it was still legally possible for Guam to avoid becoming a permanent part of the United States, as an associated territory.
The situation in the Northern Marianas, to the north of Guam, was similar. Though the Chamorro people of the Northern Marianas were fairly satisfied with US economic and defence support and grateful for it, there had always been a more autonomy-minded streak to the Northern Mariana natives. Emboldened by the autonomy and independence activists in Guam, a grassroots pro-independence movement sprung up in the Northern Marianas during the course of the 1950s. The relationship of the Northern Marianas to the United States was even looser and more lenient than that of Guam, with the US administering the Marianas as a de facto democratic protectorate under the aegis of the United Nations. This gave the Marianas independence movement enough necessary manoeuvering space to push for referenda on unification with Guam, and later referenda on granting the territory a more autonomous status, more loosely associated with the US. This was to be a stepping stone towards full independence.
The first decisive moves towards independence, both by the local campaigners of Guam and the local campaigners of the Northern Marianas - now in regular mutual contact - were taken during the course of the 1960s and 1970s, in a series of local referenda every few years, with US and UN oversight to prevent potential electoral fraud or disruptions. During official negotiations before the referenda, a compromise was reached with the United States government, allowing the Northern Marianas independence as either two separate countries or a united country (of the Marianas archipelago), while the United States was allowed to loan the territory of the existing naval bases for the following century and require an associated/allied state status with the newly independent Marianas. Though many in the US government suspected the referenda would not be too successful, they were in for a series of shock referenda victories for the pro-independence and Guam-NM political unification campaigners.
The eventual result of all these pro-independence efforts was the formation of the Mariana Islands Republic, also known colloquially as the "Chamorro Republic", after the main, native nationality of the Marianas archipelago. Independence was officially declared on the 17th April 1977.
Ever since achieving its full independence, the Mariana Islands Republic has used the flag presented above, officially adopted in 1980. Fifteen alternating blue and white stripes, mirrored in each of the two halves of the flag, represent the total number of large islands in the archipelago (fifteen, including Guam). The circular seal style emblem represents the green shores of the individual islands, washed by the foaming blue-and-white waters of the Pacific. At the centre, with a blue background, stand two argent latte stones, a famous feature of traditional Chamorro architecture from an older period of Marianas history. These are topped by a simple conical roof of a native structure, symbolising the society of the Marianas as "one united, mutual house for all". The structure is based on the various native buildings, both practical and religious, that used to be constructed atop the latte stones in prior centuries, before the architectural practice fell out of common use. The conical shape of the roof of the structure is also reminescent of the conical, mountainous shape of many of the mountainous and verdant islands of the Marianas.
(It is said that the stripes of the US national flag and the "bedsheet and a seal" US state flags were an influence on the flag designers of the MIR, but they decided to go about things their own way, rather than slavishly imitate their loose inspirations. Some advisors to the Mariana Islands vexilological committee apparently lobbied for putting fifteen stars on the flag, but this was shot down, as many in the comittee felt that stars are already overused on the national flags of Pacific Ocean countries and territories, and would also seem too US-inspired. Some people had also lobbied for the inclusion of a fourth colour, either golden or yellow, but this was rejected, as it was felt that less is more in terms of colour, and green, white and blue had a simple, natural and soothing quality to them.)"
----
Notes:
[1] - Multiverse Sociopolitical Survey Expedition
[2] - Multiverse Institute Exploration Corps
[3] - InterDimensional Alliance (a sort of multiversal UN/NATO)
[4] - OTL
Yeah, I don't like the OTL official flags of the Northern Marianas and Guam. The latter is just groanworthy, and the former would be actually quite good if it lost that bighuge star at the centre. I think it basically ruins what would be an otherwise decent flag, obscuring the latte stone that's meant to be an unmistakenable Marianas reference. Pity they designed it this way, some earlier designs didn't have that overbearing star that makes the flag look far too busy and layered. I wanted to get rid of the lame Guam flag and improve upon the NM flag, so in one fell swoop, I killed two birds with one stone, and here's the result. No stars, whether just one or several, a fairly original layout, and hard to mistake for any other national flag out there, whether in Oceania or other parts of the world.
Also, my first contest entry ever, eight years and some three months ago, was a flag with a Pacific Ocean theme, so you could say I'm finally revisiting my roots as a contestant in the Weekly Flag Challenge.
State flag of Vermont
State flag of New Hampshire
US state flags from a timeline where the North American Vexilological Association saw the creation of a spinoff organisation, the North American Heraldry Association. During the ATL 1980s, the NAVA and NAHA gained a lot of public attention and lobbying power. Combined with a favourable political climate at the time, many US states agreed to create newer, simpler versions of their flags. Given the goal of greater simplicity, but also apprehension towards losing some of the traditional vexilological symbols, NAVA consultants proposed the idea of switching to European-style heraldry, with flags containing coats of arms instead of circular state seals. This was adopted as a compromise for many reworked US state flags, which still kept their basic "bedsheet" approach, but replaced their overly busy seals with coats of arms. Here we see two textbook examples of the Heraldising reform, as it has become known: Vermont, New Hampshire.
Vermont state flag
The coat of arms on the post-1980s Vermont state flag keeps the central tree, mountains and sheaves of wheat symbolism from the original coat of arms, but eschews everything else and simplifies the heraldic charges significantly. Only two colours were used for the coat of arms, a stark reduction from the many different shades used in the old coat of arms. In a creative use of this deliberate minimalism, the chosen colour for the mountain that makes up the majority of the shield was chosen as green (vert), while gold (or) was selected for the flora charges and the sky, to provide effective contrast. This makes the coat of arms a "talking" type, pointing to the name of the state (Vertmont, "Green Mountain"; historically misspelled as Vermont). A minor concession to the highly heraldic approach to the coat of arms was adding the little state motto at its foot, the single element unchanged from the previous flag with the state seal.
New Hampshire state flag
The coat of arms on the post-1980s New Hampshire flag keeps the ship and wreath symbolism from the original state seal, in simplified form, while eschewing all the other graphical elements. To tie the coat of arms back to a pre-independence, colonial era seal, a trout-like fish is included in the upper part of the shield, above the wreath and ship. The New Hampshire coat of arms and flag helps highlight the early colonial period of the territory and the long history of settlement. The background of the flag was changed from dark blue to dark green, in order to avoid contrast issues with the coat of arms, and to provide the flag with a more distinguishable appearance.
Vermont state flag
The coat of arms on the post-1980s Vermont state flag keeps the central tree, mountains and sheaves of wheat symbolism from the original coat of arms, but eschews everything else and simplifies the heraldic charges significantly. Only two colours were used for the coat of arms, a stark reduction from the many different shades used in the old coat of arms. In a creative use of this deliberate minimalism, the chosen colour for the mountain that makes up the majority of the shield was chosen as green (vert), while gold (or) was selected for the flora charges and the sky, to provide effective contrast. This makes the coat of arms a "talking" type, pointing to the name of the state (Vertmont, "Green Mountain"; historically misspelled as Vermont). A minor concession to the highly heraldic approach to the coat of arms was adding the little state motto at its foot, the single element unchanged from the previous flag with the state seal.
New Hampshire state flag
The coat of arms on the post-1980s New Hampshire flag keeps the ship and wreath symbolism from the original state seal, in simplified form, while eschewing all the other graphical elements. To tie the coat of arms back to a pre-independence, colonial era seal, a trout-like fish is included in the upper part of the shield, above the wreath and ship. The New Hampshire coat of arms and flag helps highlight the early colonial period of the territory and the long history of settlement. The background of the flag was changed from dark blue to dark green, in order to avoid contrast issues with the coat of arms, and to provide the flag with a more distinguishable appearance.
Flag of the "Maritime Minors" official tourism region of the US (in New England)
In the early 1990s, as part of the efforts at a more vexilogically-sound revamping of most of the state flags, the US federal government spearheaded the idea to create flags for their new "America of Regions" project. The project was created to rebrand, unify and boost the national advertising of tourism within the US on a macroregional basis, both for domestic and foreign tourists.
A US tourist macroregion that proved really popular was the "Maritime Minors". As its name suggests, it consists of the five smaller states of New England to the south of Maine : Vermont, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Connecticut and Rhode Island. (Maine itself forms another, self-contained tourist region, given its sheer size as a federal state.)
The iconography of the "Maritime Minors" Region Flag borrows from symbols and figures commonly seen on the seals and official flags of the five states it consists of : Vermont is represented by a green field (hinting at the name) and a golden pine and golden sheaves, New Hampshire is represented by a simplified combination of the traditional laurel wreath and sailship motif seen in the state's seal, Connecticut is represented by a single heraldic grapevine (instead of all three) and rococco ornaments from the shield of the state's coat of arms, Massachusetts is represented by a white pine on a green field (an inversion of its usual vexilogical depiction, in order to equally mirror the quarter field of Vermont), and the golden anchor at the centre of the flag represents both the state of Rhode Island and the maritime traditions of most of the states that form this particular tourist region.
A US tourist macroregion that proved really popular was the "Maritime Minors". As its name suggests, it consists of the five smaller states of New England to the south of Maine : Vermont, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Connecticut and Rhode Island. (Maine itself forms another, self-contained tourist region, given its sheer size as a federal state.)
The iconography of the "Maritime Minors" Region Flag borrows from symbols and figures commonly seen on the seals and official flags of the five states it consists of : Vermont is represented by a green field (hinting at the name) and a golden pine and golden sheaves, New Hampshire is represented by a simplified combination of the traditional laurel wreath and sailship motif seen in the state's seal, Connecticut is represented by a single heraldic grapevine (instead of all three) and rococco ornaments from the shield of the state's coat of arms, Massachusetts is represented by a white pine on a green field (an inversion of its usual vexilogical depiction, in order to equally mirror the quarter field of Vermont), and the golden anchor at the centre of the flag represents both the state of Rhode Island and the maritime traditions of most of the states that form this particular tourist region.
This is supposed to be the national flag, not a battle flag or naval ensign and not part of any older heraldry, so the poor color combination (as far as vexillology goes) can be overlooked. The Royal House of Manticore is descended from John de la Pole, 1st Earl of Lincoln. The escutcheon of de la Pole is azure, a fess between three leopard's faces or.
Using those colors, we could make a battle flag or naval ensign look similar to the Delta, Golf, and Kilo signal flags, which would probably be quite distinctive on the European battlefield.
Since this only becomes an issue after 1780, the fact that John de la Pole being a grandson of Richard Plantagenet was more important at the time can be overlooked.
Manticore would probably see that as a feature, not a bug.
I guess I should have expected that given the very medieval European vibe of the flags.
I think I'll take a look at your Manticore stuff.
I just wanted to make a state seal and incorporate it into the flag. But now, how do you create one?
Constitutional Monarchy Egypt. Alternate timeline where the Egyptian monarchy under Britain rebelled and reformed.
State flag. The Standard of the Prime Minister is identical but has a gold trim around the flag.
Standard of the King of Egypt.
Aaaand a communist version, because they're always fun to make
State flag. The Standard of the Prime Minister is identical but has a gold trim around the flag.
Standard of the King of Egypt.
Aaaand a communist version, because they're always fun to make
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