I wouldn't call any of that spoilers, unless Neamathla told you those things. Also, could you explain your reasoning behind these ideas? Why are Marv Wolfman and Frank Miller likely to work together on Batman ITTL, when IOTL they've both worked for DC at the same time, and haven't collaborated on Batman to the best of my knowledge.
Five Colors for a Dime: A Comic Book Timeline (Redux)
- Thread starter neamathla
- Start date
Well, if he's available in the mid-late 70's at DC, it means that he's exactly in the position he was OTL at Marvel when he begin working on Daredevil. Simply replace Bullseye with Deadshot or Deathstroke, Elektra with Catwoman, or the Kathy Kane Batwoman (Yes, I know that makes for a Kissing Cousins vibe, but Frank's done more outrageous), Kingpin and Hammerhead with (Chuck Dixon's Mobster) Penguin and Blockbuster or Brick, and the Punisher with Vigilante II or the Helena Bertinelli Huntress and you have basically the blueprint for a Batman or Detective Comics version of his entire first writing run on Daredevil, more or less.
In my last post on the Silver Age, I forgot to add a paragraph. So, I am adding it here.
I have also been thinking about presenting each company's characters using microheroes to give a better visual. Possibly, including some notes on the company and characters. Is this of interest to anybody?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
During the middle 1960's, the broadcast networks began produce original children's programming. This programming was primarily low-budget animation. They centered this programming on Saturday mornings. The popularity of live-action superhero programs convinced to networks to commission superhero cartoons. ABC's success with "Captain America" leads them to stick with All-American characters. Starting in 1966, "The Flash/Green Lantern Action Hour" would run for four years. Each hour would of six segments, the Flash and Green Lantern would have two segments each with other segments rotating between Wonder Woman, Sub-Mariner, Mr. Terrific, Human Torch, and the Justice League of America. Because Talent Associates, the production company of the live-action show, held Captain America's television rights, he did not appear on the cartoon show. In 1966, NBC entered the superhero cartoon fray with Ralph Bakshi's parodic group, "the Heroic Marvels". The next year, they replaced it with the "Challengers of the Unknown" which lasted for one year. From 1967 until 1970, CBS would broadcast the "New Adventures of Superman". In 1968, Mighty decided to syndicate a series using their superheroes. "The Mighty Superheroes" was designed to be shown five days a week. Each weekday show was a different superhero (Monday: Shield, Tuesday: Web, Wednesday: Black Hood, Thursday: Comet, Friday: Thor). However, the animation was bad even for a low budget production. If not for the catchy theme songs, this series would not be remembered. By the end of the Silver Age, no superhero cartoons were left on the air.
Title card for the Flash segment of "The Flash/Green Lantern Action Hour" (cicra 1966)
The Bronze Age
The force behind DC's "New Trend" was a group known as the Junior Woodchucks. The Woodchucks were fans turned staff. Their goal was to produce the stories they always wanted to read.[1] They along with the other companies began releasing stories with more socially relevant storylines. Two such famous storylines appeared during the summer of 1971. Elliot Richardson, the Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare, approached both DC and All-American with a request from President Romney[A] to do a story about the dangers of drug abuse. "Snowbirds Can't Fly" would appear in DC's Starman/Sandman #73. Using this story as springboard, the next twelve issues would take the characters across America in Jack Kerouac inspired adventure. These issues would deal with environmentalism, over-population, religion, terrorism, and racism. All-American's "Plague!" would appear in Mr. Terrific #89-92. This arch would permanently transform the character's politics and social conscious.
Starman/Sandman #73 (October 1971), page from "Snowbirds Can't Fly"
While the mainstreet companies waited to 1970's to start publishing socially relevant material, sidestreet comics (small press and self-publishers) had been doing it for years.[2][C] Sidestreets were generally more sartorial than their mainstreet counterparts. Due to the positive portrayal of drug use and graphic sexuality, they are also sometimes referred to as "hepster comics".[D] This term is considered to be somewhat derisive. As the 1970's progressed, the growth of the film's exploitation genre would help spread sidestreet comics onto mainstreet. In addition, sidestreet comics would also provide the inspiration for the Bronze Age's first comic book movies.[3]
Zap Comix #1 (circa 1969)
During the Golden Age, minority characters, if they existed at all, were very stereotypical (ranging from mildly offensive to downright racist).[4] Non-stereotypical minority characters began to appear during the Silver Age, but they few and far between. With the coming of the Bronze Age dawn, this would change. Surprisingly, the first Afro-American[E] superhero lead in a title was from DC.[5] Until this time, DC had virtually no minority superheroes.[6] Jericho first appeared in Young Titans #26 (March 1970), before launching into his self-named title that May. That July, Escape began publishing Jungle Action which starred the Coal Tiger. By the seventh issue, the series was re-titled after him. But even this progress would be mitigated; the growing popularity of exploitation films brought forth new stereotypes.
Kirby's original sketch of the Coal Tiger
By 1971, John Goldwater, owner of Archie Comics, decided it was time to take the company public. Initially, it was a boon for the company, raising the profile of Archie and by extension Mighty. Meanwhile, Dell was running into problems. Declining sales and a thin margin of profit had Dell Publishing considering whether to sell the comics division or shut it down. At the same time, friction was beginning to grow between Gold Key and Disney over licensing. In 1973, it all came together. Disney decided to create a comic division. Disney considered acquiring Gold Key, but absorbing Gold Key's parent company Western was more than Disney wanted to take on. For similar reasons, the acquisition of Dell Comics was also eliminated. So, they decided on Archie. Disney felt that Archie's family friendly comics would fit their company viewpoint perfectly. The one problem was the Mighty imprint did not fit that view. So, Disney decided to spin Mighty off into a separate company.[F] Disney executive Thomas Anderson would replace Stan Lee. Lee would be promoted to a position with no power. Anderson's lack of imagination would cause Mighty to stagnate for the next decade. If in January of 1974, readers ignored the indicia, they wouldn't have noticed anything had changed except Archie was now publishing the Disney characters. Dell Publishing phased out their comics division after Disney passed. The last issues from Dell would come out that June.
Mickey Mouse #233 (January 1974), first Disney comic under the "new Archie"
In 1972, CBS decided to add DC superheroes to their Saturday morning lineup. Due to pressure from the Action for Children's Television (ACT) and similar groups, the executives in charge of children's programming overhauled the "Young Titans" series into the "Super Friends". Essentially, the series was a "Mysteries Five"[G] with superpowers.[7] The show was met with mediocre ratings and did not return for a second year. It would a number of years before superheroes returned to Saturday morning.
Super Friends DVD cover
While comics have long influenced other facets of pop culture, the reverse was also true. By the early 1970's, the science fiction and western genres were falling out of favor. Once again, the comic companies began to look for something different. The motion picture industry would provide the answer. Two films would revitalize two different genres. December 1973 saw the release of "The Exorcist". It would gross over $400,000,000. Suddenly, horror was back in vogue. In March of 1974, United Artists released the Ralph Bakshi's "The Hobbit". The animated film would be the third largest grossing film that year.[8] The "Fantasy Boom" was on. 1975 saw the release of Bakshi's "The Fellowship of Ring", John Doorman's "Wrath of the Dragon God", and Kevin Connor's "The Lost World".
Storyboard art for Bakshi's Fellowship of the Ring (circa 1975)
Mainline Magazines (Escape's magazine division) and Fables Publications (All-American's magazine division) were perfectly positioned to take advantage of the "Fantasy Boom". In 1971, Fables upgraded Impact to color as to compete with Mainline's Sixth World. Fables also released a second color magazine, the horror only Panic. Mainline countered with their own horror magazine, Spirit World. The next year, both would publish a fantasy magazine. Mainline would add Savage World, while Fables would have Unleashed!. Unleashed! would be the strongest seller of them all, due to its star, Conan.[9] At this point, the only competition for Sixth World and Impact were black & white magazines produced by two companies, Warren Publishing and Skyward Magazines. Their magazines sold well, but were quickly outpaced by the color magazines. While their sales couldn't compete with Fables and Mainline, they managed to remain profitable.
Unleashed! #1, first appearance of Conan (August 1972)
Mainstreet horror and fantasy titles received a bump in sales due to horror and fantasy fads. This lead to the comic companies replacing their canceled western and romance titles with fantasy and horror books. However, the uninspired horror stories made their bump fade quickly and these titles would disappear.[10] One exception was Charlton's |Swamp Thing||. This series followed the eponymous character through a Lovecraftian world. This book would prove to be one Charlton's longer lasting titles. Meanwhile, the fantasy titles were more original and so they kept their sales bump. The popularity of the fantasy genre lead some companies to place their superheroes into fantasy settings and stories. For example, Mighty had the Web traveled through Eternia for six straight issues of Mighty Team-Up.[11]
Strange Suspense Stories # 107, first appearance of the Swamp Thing (October 1971)
--------------------------------
[1] Instead of renovating the characters, the Woodchucks sheared the elements they didn't like.
[2] In the 1970's, most mainstreet companies were based in New York. Sidestreet companies tended to be based in San Francisco, in particular the Mission District.
[3] In 1972, Cinemation Industries released "The Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers", a feature-length film, and "Fritz the Cat", an animated short. The "Freak Brothers" starred Cheech Marin, Tommy Chong, and Tom Skirrit. The film was a minor hit and now considered a cult classic. A sequel, "Return of the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers", was released in 1973. "Fritz" was directed by Ralph Bakshi. He also did the voice of Fritz.
[4] During the Golden Age, the only two American minority superheroes were Gleason's Bronze Terror and All-American's Whip. The Bronze Terror appeared as a backup in Daredevil Comics for nine issues (1941-42). The Whip appeared primarily in Flash Comics until 1946. It would be decades before either character was seen again.
[5] The first Silver Age minority superhero was Escape's Coal Tiger. His first appearance was Challengers of the Unknown Annual #7 (1966). Gold Key had the first Afro-American character to have his own series. Set in the days of America's wild west, Lobo was a wandering gunslinger. Unfortunately, the series was forced to stop after two issues due to their sellers' refusal to sell the book. The two issues of Lobo were published in August and November of 1965.[H]
[6] Only two stories from DC's Silver Age had minority superheroes. "Green Arrows of the World", Adventure Comics #250 (July 1958), had Green Arrows from Japan, Polynesia, Mexico, and Saudi Arabia. France, Great Britain, and Australia also had Green Arrows. "Batman--Indian Chief!", Batman #86 (September 1954), stared "Batman and Robin clones" Man-of-the-Bats and Little Raven. Nearly forty years would pass before DC would use these characters again. Batman would also encounter European equivilents. They were Knight and Squire (Britain), Musketeer (France), Centurion (Italy), Wingman (Sweden), and Huntsman (Germany).
[7] Most episodes followed the same pattern. The team would be alerted to a problem by the Trouble Alert. After fixing the problem, the team would confront the "villain". They would then convince the villain that while their goals may have been laudible, their methods were not.
[8] The number one film was "Blazing Saddles". It starred Richard Pryor, Gene Wilder, Harvey Korman, and Madeleine Kahn and grossed $119,500,000. "The Towering Inferno" with Steve McQueen, Paul Newman, and William Holden was next with $116,000,000. At third, "The Hobbit" grossed $114,500,000. It had Michael York, Leonard Nimoy, Perry King, and Cicely Tyson as voice actors.
[9] In 1969, Kane acquired the rights to Robert E. Howard's Conan. He was unable to get DC interested, due to their focus on revitalizing the superhero line. In 1971, he left DC to work for All-American. He approached Gaines with idea of a Conan book and Unleashed! hit the newsstands in March 1972. Since "Conan" was placed prominently above the "Unleashed!" on the cover, many readers thought the book title was "Conan Unleashed!".
[10] Stories from DC's House of Mystery could be interchanged with stories from Charlton's This Is Suspense with stories from Mighty's Who's S-S-Scared?. None of the mainstreet horror titles ever managed to create a distinct identity.
[11] Eternia is Mighty's default fantasy setting. It is a cross between Narnia and Middle Earth with elements of the Hyborian Age.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[A] ITTL, John Kennedy/Estes Kaufaver won the 1960 election over Richard Nixon/Henry Cabot Lodge. Kaufaver died of heart failure on October 13, 1963. Within a year, Keaufaver's 1959 proposal for a constitutional amendment on Presidential succession would be ratified later that year. The 1964 election had John Kennedy/Terry Sanford defeat Henry Lodge/Claude Kirk. George Romney would defeat Sanford in the 1968 election. He would be reelected in 1972.
Sandy the Golden Boy does not become a junkie. He is not a stand-in for Speedy.
[C] ITTL, comic fandom uses mainstreet and sidestreet in place of mainstream and underground/alternative respectively.
[D] ITTL, Michael Fallon used the "hepster" instead of "hippie" in his article "A New Haven for Beatniks" and it stuck.
[E] ITTL, the term Afro-American did not fall out of favor.
[F] It a separate company in the same way Touchstone is separate from Disney Pictures.
[G] The original title for "Scooby-Doo" series. ITTL, the show is basically the Archie gang solving mysteries. The Mysteries Five were Geoff, Mike, Kelly, Linda, and Ronny. They didn't have a dog.
[H] Other than slightly moving the publications dates and changing the publisher from Dell to Gold Key, this is what really happened.
I have also been thinking about presenting each company's characters using microheroes to give a better visual. Possibly, including some notes on the company and characters. Is this of interest to anybody?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
During the middle 1960's, the broadcast networks began produce original children's programming. This programming was primarily low-budget animation. They centered this programming on Saturday mornings. The popularity of live-action superhero programs convinced to networks to commission superhero cartoons. ABC's success with "Captain America" leads them to stick with All-American characters. Starting in 1966, "The Flash/Green Lantern Action Hour" would run for four years. Each hour would of six segments, the Flash and Green Lantern would have two segments each with other segments rotating between Wonder Woman, Sub-Mariner, Mr. Terrific, Human Torch, and the Justice League of America. Because Talent Associates, the production company of the live-action show, held Captain America's television rights, he did not appear on the cartoon show. In 1966, NBC entered the superhero cartoon fray with Ralph Bakshi's parodic group, "the Heroic Marvels". The next year, they replaced it with the "Challengers of the Unknown" which lasted for one year. From 1967 until 1970, CBS would broadcast the "New Adventures of Superman". In 1968, Mighty decided to syndicate a series using their superheroes. "The Mighty Superheroes" was designed to be shown five days a week. Each weekday show was a different superhero (Monday: Shield, Tuesday: Web, Wednesday: Black Hood, Thursday: Comet, Friday: Thor). However, the animation was bad even for a low budget production. If not for the catchy theme songs, this series would not be remembered. By the end of the Silver Age, no superhero cartoons were left on the air.
Title card for the Flash segment of "The Flash/Green Lantern Action Hour" (cicra 1966)
The Bronze Age
The force behind DC's "New Trend" was a group known as the Junior Woodchucks. The Woodchucks were fans turned staff. Their goal was to produce the stories they always wanted to read.[1] They along with the other companies began releasing stories with more socially relevant storylines. Two such famous storylines appeared during the summer of 1971. Elliot Richardson, the Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare, approached both DC and All-American with a request from President Romney[A] to do a story about the dangers of drug abuse. "Snowbirds Can't Fly" would appear in DC's Starman/Sandman #73. Using this story as springboard, the next twelve issues would take the characters across America in Jack Kerouac inspired adventure. These issues would deal with environmentalism, over-population, religion, terrorism, and racism. All-American's "Plague!" would appear in Mr. Terrific #89-92. This arch would permanently transform the character's politics and social conscious.
Starman/Sandman #73 (October 1971), page from "Snowbirds Can't Fly"
While the mainstreet companies waited to 1970's to start publishing socially relevant material, sidestreet comics (small press and self-publishers) had been doing it for years.[2][C] Sidestreets were generally more sartorial than their mainstreet counterparts. Due to the positive portrayal of drug use and graphic sexuality, they are also sometimes referred to as "hepster comics".[D] This term is considered to be somewhat derisive. As the 1970's progressed, the growth of the film's exploitation genre would help spread sidestreet comics onto mainstreet. In addition, sidestreet comics would also provide the inspiration for the Bronze Age's first comic book movies.[3]
Zap Comix #1 (circa 1969)
During the Golden Age, minority characters, if they existed at all, were very stereotypical (ranging from mildly offensive to downright racist).[4] Non-stereotypical minority characters began to appear during the Silver Age, but they few and far between. With the coming of the Bronze Age dawn, this would change. Surprisingly, the first Afro-American[E] superhero lead in a title was from DC.[5] Until this time, DC had virtually no minority superheroes.[6] Jericho first appeared in Young Titans #26 (March 1970), before launching into his self-named title that May. That July, Escape began publishing Jungle Action which starred the Coal Tiger. By the seventh issue, the series was re-titled after him. But even this progress would be mitigated; the growing popularity of exploitation films brought forth new stereotypes.
Kirby's original sketch of the Coal Tiger
By 1971, John Goldwater, owner of Archie Comics, decided it was time to take the company public. Initially, it was a boon for the company, raising the profile of Archie and by extension Mighty. Meanwhile, Dell was running into problems. Declining sales and a thin margin of profit had Dell Publishing considering whether to sell the comics division or shut it down. At the same time, friction was beginning to grow between Gold Key and Disney over licensing. In 1973, it all came together. Disney decided to create a comic division. Disney considered acquiring Gold Key, but absorbing Gold Key's parent company Western was more than Disney wanted to take on. For similar reasons, the acquisition of Dell Comics was also eliminated. So, they decided on Archie. Disney felt that Archie's family friendly comics would fit their company viewpoint perfectly. The one problem was the Mighty imprint did not fit that view. So, Disney decided to spin Mighty off into a separate company.[F] Disney executive Thomas Anderson would replace Stan Lee. Lee would be promoted to a position with no power. Anderson's lack of imagination would cause Mighty to stagnate for the next decade. If in January of 1974, readers ignored the indicia, they wouldn't have noticed anything had changed except Archie was now publishing the Disney characters. Dell Publishing phased out their comics division after Disney passed. The last issues from Dell would come out that June.
Mickey Mouse #233 (January 1974), first Disney comic under the "new Archie"
In 1972, CBS decided to add DC superheroes to their Saturday morning lineup. Due to pressure from the Action for Children's Television (ACT) and similar groups, the executives in charge of children's programming overhauled the "Young Titans" series into the "Super Friends". Essentially, the series was a "Mysteries Five"[G] with superpowers.[7] The show was met with mediocre ratings and did not return for a second year. It would a number of years before superheroes returned to Saturday morning.
Super Friends DVD cover
While comics have long influenced other facets of pop culture, the reverse was also true. By the early 1970's, the science fiction and western genres were falling out of favor. Once again, the comic companies began to look for something different. The motion picture industry would provide the answer. Two films would revitalize two different genres. December 1973 saw the release of "The Exorcist". It would gross over $400,000,000. Suddenly, horror was back in vogue. In March of 1974, United Artists released the Ralph Bakshi's "The Hobbit". The animated film would be the third largest grossing film that year.[8] The "Fantasy Boom" was on. 1975 saw the release of Bakshi's "The Fellowship of Ring", John Doorman's "Wrath of the Dragon God", and Kevin Connor's "The Lost World".
Storyboard art for Bakshi's Fellowship of the Ring (circa 1975)
Mainline Magazines (Escape's magazine division) and Fables Publications (All-American's magazine division) were perfectly positioned to take advantage of the "Fantasy Boom". In 1971, Fables upgraded Impact to color as to compete with Mainline's Sixth World. Fables also released a second color magazine, the horror only Panic. Mainline countered with their own horror magazine, Spirit World. The next year, both would publish a fantasy magazine. Mainline would add Savage World, while Fables would have Unleashed!. Unleashed! would be the strongest seller of them all, due to its star, Conan.[9] At this point, the only competition for Sixth World and Impact were black & white magazines produced by two companies, Warren Publishing and Skyward Magazines. Their magazines sold well, but were quickly outpaced by the color magazines. While their sales couldn't compete with Fables and Mainline, they managed to remain profitable.
Unleashed! #1, first appearance of Conan (August 1972)
Mainstreet horror and fantasy titles received a bump in sales due to horror and fantasy fads. This lead to the comic companies replacing their canceled western and romance titles with fantasy and horror books. However, the uninspired horror stories made their bump fade quickly and these titles would disappear.[10] One exception was Charlton's |Swamp Thing||. This series followed the eponymous character through a Lovecraftian world. This book would prove to be one Charlton's longer lasting titles. Meanwhile, the fantasy titles were more original and so they kept their sales bump. The popularity of the fantasy genre lead some companies to place their superheroes into fantasy settings and stories. For example, Mighty had the Web traveled through Eternia for six straight issues of Mighty Team-Up.[11]
Strange Suspense Stories # 107, first appearance of the Swamp Thing (October 1971)
--------------------------------
[1] Instead of renovating the characters, the Woodchucks sheared the elements they didn't like.
[2] In the 1970's, most mainstreet companies were based in New York. Sidestreet companies tended to be based in San Francisco, in particular the Mission District.
[3] In 1972, Cinemation Industries released "The Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers", a feature-length film, and "Fritz the Cat", an animated short. The "Freak Brothers" starred Cheech Marin, Tommy Chong, and Tom Skirrit. The film was a minor hit and now considered a cult classic. A sequel, "Return of the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers", was released in 1973. "Fritz" was directed by Ralph Bakshi. He also did the voice of Fritz.
[4] During the Golden Age, the only two American minority superheroes were Gleason's Bronze Terror and All-American's Whip. The Bronze Terror appeared as a backup in Daredevil Comics for nine issues (1941-42). The Whip appeared primarily in Flash Comics until 1946. It would be decades before either character was seen again.
[5] The first Silver Age minority superhero was Escape's Coal Tiger. His first appearance was Challengers of the Unknown Annual #7 (1966). Gold Key had the first Afro-American character to have his own series. Set in the days of America's wild west, Lobo was a wandering gunslinger. Unfortunately, the series was forced to stop after two issues due to their sellers' refusal to sell the book. The two issues of Lobo were published in August and November of 1965.[H]
[6] Only two stories from DC's Silver Age had minority superheroes. "Green Arrows of the World", Adventure Comics #250 (July 1958), had Green Arrows from Japan, Polynesia, Mexico, and Saudi Arabia. France, Great Britain, and Australia also had Green Arrows. "Batman--Indian Chief!", Batman #86 (September 1954), stared "Batman and Robin clones" Man-of-the-Bats and Little Raven. Nearly forty years would pass before DC would use these characters again. Batman would also encounter European equivilents. They were Knight and Squire (Britain), Musketeer (France), Centurion (Italy), Wingman (Sweden), and Huntsman (Germany).
[7] Most episodes followed the same pattern. The team would be alerted to a problem by the Trouble Alert. After fixing the problem, the team would confront the "villain". They would then convince the villain that while their goals may have been laudible, their methods were not.
[8] The number one film was "Blazing Saddles". It starred Richard Pryor, Gene Wilder, Harvey Korman, and Madeleine Kahn and grossed $119,500,000. "The Towering Inferno" with Steve McQueen, Paul Newman, and William Holden was next with $116,000,000. At third, "The Hobbit" grossed $114,500,000. It had Michael York, Leonard Nimoy, Perry King, and Cicely Tyson as voice actors.
[9] In 1969, Kane acquired the rights to Robert E. Howard's Conan. He was unable to get DC interested, due to their focus on revitalizing the superhero line. In 1971, he left DC to work for All-American. He approached Gaines with idea of a Conan book and Unleashed! hit the newsstands in March 1972. Since "Conan" was placed prominently above the "Unleashed!" on the cover, many readers thought the book title was "Conan Unleashed!".
[10] Stories from DC's House of Mystery could be interchanged with stories from Charlton's This Is Suspense with stories from Mighty's Who's S-S-Scared?. None of the mainstreet horror titles ever managed to create a distinct identity.
[11] Eternia is Mighty's default fantasy setting. It is a cross between Narnia and Middle Earth with elements of the Hyborian Age.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[A] ITTL, John Kennedy/Estes Kaufaver won the 1960 election over Richard Nixon/Henry Cabot Lodge. Kaufaver died of heart failure on October 13, 1963. Within a year, Keaufaver's 1959 proposal for a constitutional amendment on Presidential succession would be ratified later that year. The 1964 election had John Kennedy/Terry Sanford defeat Henry Lodge/Claude Kirk. George Romney would defeat Sanford in the 1968 election. He would be reelected in 1972.
Sandy the Golden Boy does not become a junkie. He is not a stand-in for Speedy.
[C] ITTL, comic fandom uses mainstreet and sidestreet in place of mainstream and underground/alternative respectively.
[D] ITTL, Michael Fallon used the "hepster" instead of "hippie" in his article "A New Haven for Beatniks" and it stuck.
[E] ITTL, the term Afro-American did not fall out of favor.
[F] It a separate company in the same way Touchstone is separate from Disney Pictures.
[G] The original title for "Scooby-Doo" series. ITTL, the show is basically the Archie gang solving mysteries. The Mysteries Five were Geoff, Mike, Kelly, Linda, and Ronny. They didn't have a dog.
[H] Other than slightly moving the publications dates and changing the publisher from Dell to Gold Key, this is what really happened.
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Very interesting. I'm glad Charlton has Swamp Thing. This will be very good for them, since they don't seem to have done anything major yet. BTW, is Alan Moore coming to this company? I know of at least three reasons to suspect Alan Moore's coming to Charlton.
Two minor quibbles: I was under the impression Jack Kirby created the Green Arrows of the World, and he certainly wouldn't have left his own company to work for DC in this timeline. I may be mistaken. I just know I have a TPB of Kirby's Green Arrow stories and one of them features the Green Arrows of the World. The other quibble is that you used the word "consincous" in the first paragraph of the Bronze Age, and I don't know what you might mean by that.
I'm looking forward to learning what Stan Lee's future is. I hope he somehow escapes from being kicked upstairs, but I'd accept it if that's where he remains.
Two minor quibbles: I was under the impression Jack Kirby created the Green Arrows of the World, and he certainly wouldn't have left his own company to work for DC in this timeline. I may be mistaken. I just know I have a TPB of Kirby's Green Arrow stories and one of them features the Green Arrows of the World. The other quibble is that you used the word "consincous" in the first paragraph of the Bronze Age, and I don't know what you might mean by that.
I'm looking forward to learning what Stan Lee's future is. I hope he somehow escapes from being kicked upstairs, but I'd accept it if that's where he remains.
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Looks like you're right, Kalvan. I just did some extensive research (I skimmed a Wikipedia article) and it seems that the ATL doesn't need Stan anymore. His biggest moves in the 70s were killing Gwen Stacy (which ITTL was done earlier) and publishing a comic about drugs without the Comic Code Authority (which ITTL was done by DC, and the CCA doesn't seem to exist). However, I do worry that Mighty Comics won't be able to innovate under its new ruler. This will be no place for anything like the New X-Men. If there's never anything like the New X-Men, that would make the future of comics very different, and such a thing is likely since there doesn't seem to be an X-Men analog yet. However, I'm guessing they'll appear in Escape Comics, because it seems a lot of the Escape artists in the 80s were involved in X-Men IOTL.
And I've never heard of him after that cartoon, until now.
Anyway, Neamathla, can you flesh out more information about who your characters are? Is Coal Tiger anything like Black Panther? What are the Silver Age versions of the familiar (and less familiar) Golden Agers like? I'm not saying the comic book characters need to dominate your thread about the history of the industry, but it would really interest me to know more about them.
Anyway, Neamathla, can you flesh out more information about who your characters are? Is Coal Tiger anything like Black Panther? What are the Silver Age versions of the familiar (and less familiar) Golden Agers like? I'm not saying the comic book characters need to dominate your thread about the history of the industry, but it would really interest me to know more about them.
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Part of the appeal of Charlton's Swamp Thing is that the title is little darker than in OTL. With Roy Thomas as Charlton's head guy, a certain waterfowl and his creator make out better.
This timeline's "Green Arrows of the World" is a straight rehash of "Batmen of All Nations" (Detective Comics #215). During my alt Silver Age, this was very common for DC.
Thanks for catching that, it should have been "conscious". I have made the correction.
The 70's are not going to good for Mighty. Disney leadership is going through a transition. All they want is for Mighty not to rock the boat. Other than the occasional marketing idea, Stan will be ignored. However, he will be better off financially in this timeline.
By concentrating on the companies, the rewrites tend to eliminate my character notes. For the record, the X-Men book is entitled "The Mutants". The star is a group called "the Cavalry" (post-1966, "Cavalry of the Atom"). Their main antagonist is "the Brotherhood of Doom". The title is considered nothing special, just team book only with mutants.
Due to the way I arranged things, neither Luke Cage nor Iron Fist will exist. Which is a shame, because I like these characters. However, some sort exploitation inspired characters will appear. The genre is too popular to ignore. This will true of all companies.
The Coal Tiger is the original name of the Black Panther. Kirby showed Stan the sketch I included in Bronze Age, but Stan didn't like the name. So, he renamed him the Black Panther. ITTL, the name never changed.
In the coming days, I plan to a post on each company. Each presentation will have images of the major characters. It will also have character thumbnails. These presentations will only deal with characters from the Silver and early Bronze Ages. After I finish the Bronze Age, I will post character updates.
Sweet! Looking forward to it.
It sounds like Lee has a fair enough future, living comfortably but probably not as much of a celebrity as IOTL. As for the Mutants, I've heard that that was the original name for the X-Men, so I'm glad you picked that. I'm curious about what company they're in, though. And I'm impressed that you know so much of the background information of this characters, so you don't have to rely heavily on making shit up. Not that making shit up is a bad thing. It's just good to have your options.
It sounds like Lee has a fair enough future, living comfortably but probably not as much of a celebrity as IOTL. As for the Mutants, I've heard that that was the original name for the X-Men, so I'm glad you picked that. I'm curious about what company they're in, though. And I'm impressed that you know so much of the background information of this characters, so you don't have to rely heavily on making shit up. Not that making shit up is a bad thing. It's just good to have your options.
That could be interesting, though admittedly not as interesting as Barks would have been.
I'm curious about what the Mainline Comics imprint will be. I'm also having my doubts about Charlton surviving, because Neamathla's table doesn't list anybody working for Charlton in 1980, so perhaps it gets bought by another one of the companies. However, this could mean that Charlton in 1980 simply employed people who didn't previously have careers in this country.
Also, the characters from Fox Comics eventually found their way to Escape Comics. Does this mean Escape owns Blue Beetle, or is that a Charlton title as well?
I'm curious about what the Mainline Comics imprint will be. I'm also having my doubts about Charlton surviving, because Neamathla's table doesn't list anybody working for Charlton in 1980, so perhaps it gets bought by another one of the companies. However, this could mean that Charlton in 1980 simply employed people who didn't previously have careers in this country.
Also, the characters from Fox Comics eventually found their way to Escape Comics. Does this mean Escape owns Blue Beetle, or is that a Charlton title as well?
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Sorry about the delay, but real life always has a way of interfering. I hope post the company briefs over the next week and then produce the rest of the Bronze Age. Without further ado, here is All-American.
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All-American Publications (circa 1974)
All-American superheroes
The Gaines family has owned All-American since its founding. Thus far, the Gaines have resisted any attempts to purchase them. Currently, Bill Gaines is the president/publisher with Julius Swartz as editor-in-chief. Besides comics, All-American produces magazines under the Fables imprint. Most of the magazines are full color glossy books, but recently they have begun to enter the black & white field. The cornerstone of the All-American Universe (AAU) is the Silver Sextet. The Sextet is the collection of All-American's marquee characters. In order of popularity, they are the Flash, Captain America, Green Lantern, Sub-Mariner, Wonder Woman, and Mr. Terrific. Popular characters that are not part of the AAU include Conan, Deadman, Doctor Adam Strange, Johnny Thunder, Jonah Hex, the Phantom Stranger, and Sgt. Rock.
All-American's marquee superhero team is the Justice League of America. The founding members in order of popularity are Flash, Green Lantern, Captain America, Sub-Mariner, Wonder Woman, and Mr. Terrific. Over the years new members were added, but the roster would remain at six. The new members, in order of induction, were Hawkman (1961), Hawkgirl (1961), the Atom (1963), Elongated Man (1966), Black Canary (1966), the Human Torch (1966), and Jubilee (1970). There are two honorary members, Wildcat (1964) and Golden Girl (1967). In 1970, Wildcat would become All-American's first Afro-American superhero. Before this revelation, the character was purposely kept in costume. On the rare occasions when he wasn't, shadows and darkness obscured his appearance. Golden Girl was created to give Captain America's TV partner a costumed identity. The Teen Paladins were created as a response to Mighty's Mutants (Cavalry) and DC's Young Titans. As All-American didn't generally believe in sidekicks, teen version of some their characters were used rarely. In fact, Red Tornado was specifically created for this team. Other popular characters include Thorn, Animal Man, Dr. Mid-Nite, and Karate Man.
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All-American Publications (circa 1974)
All-American superheroes
The Gaines family has owned All-American since its founding. Thus far, the Gaines have resisted any attempts to purchase them. Currently, Bill Gaines is the president/publisher with Julius Swartz as editor-in-chief. Besides comics, All-American produces magazines under the Fables imprint. Most of the magazines are full color glossy books, but recently they have begun to enter the black & white field. The cornerstone of the All-American Universe (AAU) is the Silver Sextet. The Sextet is the collection of All-American's marquee characters. In order of popularity, they are the Flash, Captain America, Green Lantern, Sub-Mariner, Wonder Woman, and Mr. Terrific. Popular characters that are not part of the AAU include Conan, Deadman, Doctor Adam Strange, Johnny Thunder, Jonah Hex, the Phantom Stranger, and Sgt. Rock.
All-American's marquee superhero team is the Justice League of America. The founding members in order of popularity are Flash, Green Lantern, Captain America, Sub-Mariner, Wonder Woman, and Mr. Terrific. Over the years new members were added, but the roster would remain at six. The new members, in order of induction, were Hawkman (1961), Hawkgirl (1961), the Atom (1963), Elongated Man (1966), Black Canary (1966), the Human Torch (1966), and Jubilee (1970). There are two honorary members, Wildcat (1964) and Golden Girl (1967). In 1970, Wildcat would become All-American's first Afro-American superhero. Before this revelation, the character was purposely kept in costume. On the rare occasions when he wasn't, shadows and darkness obscured his appearance. Golden Girl was created to give Captain America's TV partner a costumed identity. The Teen Paladins were created as a response to Mighty's Mutants (Cavalry) and DC's Young Titans. As All-American didn't generally believe in sidekicks, teen version of some their characters were used rarely. In fact, Red Tornado was specifically created for this team. Other popular characters include Thorn, Animal Man, Dr. Mid-Nite, and Karate Man.
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So, are All American's Silver/Bronze age heroes legacy characters sensu-strictu, or are they using an OTL DC-Style multiverse to keep things straight? And did All American get a hold of The Invaders and/or the All Winners Squadron? What happened to Green Arrow?
Now to specific heroes:
Black Canary:
1: Does Kim Brand rely more on her martial arts prowess or her voice in combat, or does she posess any of the former?
2: Given that she's caucasian and she wears blue spandex rather than black leather and fishnets, how did she gain this particular handle?
Captain America:
1. Did Mr. Blake fight in Viet Nam?
2. Did Mr. Blake ever meet or was he part of the same project as Slade Wilson, or is Deathstroke going to be part of DC?
3. Did Bucky live past VJ Day?
4. Metafictionally, did you mean to give him a reference to The Comedian from OTL's Watchmen?
Green Lantern:
1: Did anyone think of adding Arisia to the Teen Paladins?
2: Are Sinestro and/or the Star Sapphire Champion still part of Hal's rogue's gallery?
Hawk Family:
1: Are Ray and Mavis aliens who have to wear big trenchcoats in their civilian IDs, (like OTL Silver Age Thanagarians and post-Crisis Shaerya) or really fit athletes in custom harness (Like OTL Golden Age and Post-Crisis Carter and Kendra)?
2: If the latter, is Ray still Jewish?
Human Torch:
1: Has Buddy Baker met the robot masquerading as Jim Hammond?
2: Does Mr. Baker's origin more closely resemble that of OTL Firestorm Ronnie Raymond, or that of OTL Fire from Brazil?
3: Did T. O. Morrow build Jim Hammond?
4: Is Sun Boy Baker's sidekick?
Red Tornado:
1: Has Lucas Carr met the robot masquerading as John Smith?
Sub-Mariner:
1: What is Gordon Pym's relationship, if any, to Namor?
The Atom:
1: Is Gene Loring's powerset that of OTL's Ray Palmer, or OTL's Al Pratt?
Thorn:
1: Is Rose Rhedd essentially a heroic version of OTL Poison Ivy?
Wildcat:
1: Does Mal Duncan have nine lives?
Wonder Woman:
1. Is Wonder Woman II (III?) still an Amazon from Paradise Island/Isle of Thymescria? Does she have any relationship to Heroic or Classical Greece whatsoever?
2: Does Selena Brown's backstory more closely resemble Donna Troy's, or Cassie Sandsmark's?
Now to specific heroes:
Black Canary:
1: Does Kim Brand rely more on her martial arts prowess or her voice in combat, or does she posess any of the former?
2: Given that she's caucasian and she wears blue spandex rather than black leather and fishnets, how did she gain this particular handle?
Captain America:
1. Did Mr. Blake fight in Viet Nam?
2. Did Mr. Blake ever meet or was he part of the same project as Slade Wilson, or is Deathstroke going to be part of DC?
3. Did Bucky live past VJ Day?
4. Metafictionally, did you mean to give him a reference to The Comedian from OTL's Watchmen?
Green Lantern:
1: Did anyone think of adding Arisia to the Teen Paladins?
2: Are Sinestro and/or the Star Sapphire Champion still part of Hal's rogue's gallery?
Hawk Family:
1: Are Ray and Mavis aliens who have to wear big trenchcoats in their civilian IDs, (like OTL Silver Age Thanagarians and post-Crisis Shaerya) or really fit athletes in custom harness (Like OTL Golden Age and Post-Crisis Carter and Kendra)?
2: If the latter, is Ray still Jewish?
Human Torch:
1: Has Buddy Baker met the robot masquerading as Jim Hammond?
2: Does Mr. Baker's origin more closely resemble that of OTL Firestorm Ronnie Raymond, or that of OTL Fire from Brazil?
3: Did T. O. Morrow build Jim Hammond?
4: Is Sun Boy Baker's sidekick?
Red Tornado:
1: Has Lucas Carr met the robot masquerading as John Smith?
Sub-Mariner:
1: What is Gordon Pym's relationship, if any, to Namor?
The Atom:
1: Is Gene Loring's powerset that of OTL's Ray Palmer, or OTL's Al Pratt?
Thorn:
1: Is Rose Rhedd essentially a heroic version of OTL Poison Ivy?
Wildcat:
1: Does Mal Duncan have nine lives?
Wonder Woman:
1. Is Wonder Woman II (III?) still an Amazon from Paradise Island/Isle of Thymescria? Does she have any relationship to Heroic or Classical Greece whatsoever?
2: Does Selena Brown's backstory more closely resemble Donna Troy's, or Cassie Sandsmark's?
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Charlton Comics (circa 1974)
Charlton superheroes
Charlton Comics have always been a sideline for Charlton Publications. The comic line was created as way to keep their presses busy between magazine runs. Until the promotion of Roy Thomas as Editor-in-Chief, Charlton worked on a shotgun approach to publishing. Books would constantly change title and genre. Thomas would change that. He quickly reorganized the titles produced. He grouped them into four categories. Licensed titles such as Bonanza were one group. The anthology titles were split into two groups, science fiction/fantasy/horror and military/western/detective. He also established a superhero line based on the old Nedor characters. While they do not outsell the other major publishers, they are competitive especially with Mighty. What Thomas could not change was the pay rate which was among the lowest in the industry. However, under Thomas Charlton became the place to break into industry. He would also give a free hand to established professionals which allowed him to attract talent such as Steve Dikto. Charlton has now entered the magazine market with a trio titles, Saga of the Swamp Thing, Steve Austin: Cyborg, and Ghostly Tales.
Like all the major comic companies, Charlton has a marquee team, the Defenders. The original Defenders were American Crusader, Black Terror, Cavalier, and Miss Masque. Within the first year, Daredevil joined the team. Writer Pete Morisi was able to get permission to use the character from owner Lev Gleason. The roster continues to expand. The membership now includes Arcana, Barracuda, Captain Future, Doctor Spectro, Magno, Nightshade, and Thunderbolt. The creation of a superhero line allowed Roy Thomas to indulge in his passion, Golden Age characters. Using the Golden Age as a backdrop, he created the Invaders. The Invaders consisted of American Eagle and Eaglet, Fighting Yank, Liberator, Pyroman, Scarab, and the Woman in Red. Their self-named title ran from 1967-1974. Some characters in the Charlton Universe are marketed as action heroes as opposed to superheroes. They include the Question, Sarge Steel, the Grim Reaper, and the Peacemaker. Others are just different, such as the Creeper and the Grey Ghost.
Charlton superheroes
Charlton Comics have always been a sideline for Charlton Publications. The comic line was created as way to keep their presses busy between magazine runs. Until the promotion of Roy Thomas as Editor-in-Chief, Charlton worked on a shotgun approach to publishing. Books would constantly change title and genre. Thomas would change that. He quickly reorganized the titles produced. He grouped them into four categories. Licensed titles such as Bonanza were one group. The anthology titles were split into two groups, science fiction/fantasy/horror and military/western/detective. He also established a superhero line based on the old Nedor characters. While they do not outsell the other major publishers, they are competitive especially with Mighty. What Thomas could not change was the pay rate which was among the lowest in the industry. However, under Thomas Charlton became the place to break into industry. He would also give a free hand to established professionals which allowed him to attract talent such as Steve Dikto. Charlton has now entered the magazine market with a trio titles, Saga of the Swamp Thing, Steve Austin: Cyborg, and Ghostly Tales.
Like all the major comic companies, Charlton has a marquee team, the Defenders. The original Defenders were American Crusader, Black Terror, Cavalier, and Miss Masque. Within the first year, Daredevil joined the team. Writer Pete Morisi was able to get permission to use the character from owner Lev Gleason. The roster continues to expand. The membership now includes Arcana, Barracuda, Captain Future, Doctor Spectro, Magno, Nightshade, and Thunderbolt. The creation of a superhero line allowed Roy Thomas to indulge in his passion, Golden Age characters. Using the Golden Age as a backdrop, he created the Invaders. The Invaders consisted of American Eagle and Eaglet, Fighting Yank, Liberator, Pyroman, Scarab, and the Woman in Red. Their self-named title ran from 1967-1974. Some characters in the Charlton Universe are marketed as action heroes as opposed to superheroes. They include the Question, Sarge Steel, the Grim Reaper, and the Peacemaker. Others are just different, such as the Creeper and the Grey Ghost.
Regarding Charlton:
Why not have had Charlton outright buy out the Lev Gleason characters? Crimebuster and Silver Streak could have been made to work too.
Why didn't Fawcett, DC, or All American do a cease-and-desist order over Captain Future? He looks like Captain Marvel or Jay Garrick in wrestling briefs.
I guess this means that TTL's equivalent of The Comedian will be based more on Black Terror. BTW, what happened to Timmy?
What happened to Captain Atom?
What happened to Fox properties like Blue Beetle and Wonder Man. Does Rupert Murdoch own them by now?
Why not have had Charlton outright buy out the Lev Gleason characters? Crimebuster and Silver Streak could have been made to work too.
Why didn't Fawcett, DC, or All American do a cease-and-desist order over Captain Future? He looks like Captain Marvel or Jay Garrick in wrestling briefs.
I guess this means that TTL's equivalent of The Comedian will be based more on Black Terror. BTW, what happened to Timmy?
What happened to Captain Atom?
What happened to Fox properties like Blue Beetle and Wonder Man. Does Rupert Murdoch own them by now?
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All-American uses a multiverse. The Golden Age characters exist on Earth-Zero, while Silver/Bronze Age characters are on Earth-One. All Marvel characters published before 1958 are property of All-American. So the All-Winners Squad exists alongside the JSA on Earth-Zero. Roy Thomas still created the Invaders, but with Nedor characters instead.
Thanks to Weisinger keeping Batman and Superman to himself, Green Arrow got to shine as a member of DC's Legion of Superheroes. He is more popular than in our timeline.
1. She uses both, but more likely to use her sonic voice.
2. The characters are wearing their mid-70s costumes. This was attempt at bad costume design. The original costume was primarily dark grey. As with the Flash and Green Lantern, they never showed her choosing the name. It just used by other characters when talking to her.
1. No. ITTL, Vietnam never escalated beyond Kennedy's advisor stage. Characters with a connection to Vietnam are extremely rare.
2. No. Deathstroke is a DC villain.
3. As a general rule the Golden Age All-American writers didn’t use sidekicks. I kept that idea going. So sidekicks are very rare. So a Silver/Bronze Age Bucky wasn't created. Cap only got Golden Girl as a partner because the TV people wanted her. The Captain America and Bucky stories of the 1950s were assigned to Earth-Six. Instead, the Golden Age Bucky was shown to have assumed a new moniker in 1950s, the Volunteer.
4. Actually, this was a mistake. I began to apply pieces of Captain Comet's history to Green Lantern. So I changed swapped GL's ID with Cap's ID, but forgot to update the graphic. I have corrected this mistake. Cap's ID is now Hal Jordan and GL is Adam Blake.
1. No. This character does not exist. The Green Lantern Corps does not exist, but the Guardians do. GL is just one of many agents the Guardians use. The Guardians that I have in mind are those that appeared in the Captain Comet stories. The name will pop up in GL mythos, because of GL/Lensmen connections.
2. Yes. They are origins are slightly different.
1. The Palmers are humans with wing harnesses. Each harness contains an anti-gravity metal they created from a meteorite.
2. I don't see why not. But to be honest, I haven't given it much thought.
1. Yes, during one of the JLA/JSA crossovers.
2. Neither. It is a variant of Animal Man's origin. When the UFO explodes, it grants Baker control over fire instead of animal mimicry.
3. No. The original Torch has the same origin.
4. When the Teen Paladins were formed, Sun Boy had only appeared about a half dozen times. His first appearance was as a coerced villain. Sun Boy shares his origin with the Human Torch as he was also present when the UFO exploded.
1. No. The robotic John Smith wasn't built. Carr became the Red Tornado during the Teen Paladins first appearance. TO Morrow had captured the Justice League. He brainwashed them into committing crimes. Kid Flash, Stingray, Sun Boy, and Wonder Girl attempted to stop them individually and were defeated. While they regrouped, Carr broke into Morrow's lab and put together the Red Tornado costume. Carr joined the other four in a group attack that defeated the Justice League and exposed Morrow as the villain. Carr's costume provides the same powers that OTL's Red Tornado has.
1. None. His origin is closely related to the Silver Age Aquaman. ITTL, DC continues to use Aquaman's Golden Age origin. So TTL's Aquaman is not an Atlantean and Atlantis is full of merpeople (such as Lori Lemaris). His ID comes from main protagonist of the Poe novel, The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym of Nantucket. Stingray's ID is the same as another character in the novel.
1. Initially, I had planned Al Pratt. But I couldn't resist keeping a guilty pleasure alive (Sword of the Atom). So it's Ray Palmer.
1. No. She is the same OTL Thorn. I just tweaked her civilian ID.
1. Not exactly. Throughout the Silver and Bronze Ages, there is considerable debate on whether he is a metahuman or not (similar to debate on OTL's Green Arrow). The debate will be rendered moot by a revelation in the mid-1990s.
1. None. I originally planned to use Moon Girl's origin, but thought it seemed overly sexist even for the 1950s. So I merged elements from the Silver Age Hawkgirl's origin into it. She is an envoy from the planet Thanagar. She first came to Earth chasing Byth, the shape-changing thief and decided to stay.
2. Neither. She is Wonder Woman's cousin.
I thought about it. But the Gleason characters weren't bought IOTL, so I kept it that way. IOTL, Pete Morisi tried to resurrect Daredevil, but ran into conflict with artist Charles Biro. In the end, Morisi created Peter Cannon, Thunderbolt instead. ITTL, he got the ok from Biro and the character re-emerged.
I can't speak as to why no C&D letters were never sent over Captain Future in OTL. The character originally ran 1940-1946 in both OTL and TTL. So, when the character was revived in the 1960s, DC and All-American had ceded the issue. Captain Future's powers included flight, super-strength, and ability to fire energy bolts. He also had to periodically recharge himself with gamma/infrared rays.
Without giving too much away, the Charlton characters are not involved in any way with Watchmen. They wanted a solo hero. So when Charlton revived and modernized the Black Terror, they left out Timmy.
Steve Ditko and Joe Gill created Captain Atom. In 1960, Ditko is at Mighty and Gill at Charlton. So the Captain falls by wayside. However, Ditko and Gill creates a variant of Captain Atom. Gill does so much later at Dell.
The Fox properties belong to Escape. Blue Beetle is one of their major titles. Wonder Man obliviated by a DC lawsuit when the character first appeared. He will not making any appearances. The Murdoch Empire is much smaller in this timeline and is not involved in the comic industry.
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