Fitter Italian military during WW2

IMHO speeding up the development of aerial torpedoes would help Italy a lot.

The Regia Aeronautica had 594 S.M.79s in June 1940. If only a quarter of them had been armed with effective torpedoes and their crews trained in their use it would have been a formidable force. The possible deployment could have been.
60 NW Italy to defend that portion of Italy's coast so that it would have been within range of Toulon
60 in Libya and the Dodecanese islands and/or Eastern Libya to attack the British Mediterranean Fleet.
30 in Eritrea or Italian Somaliand to attack shipping in the Red Sea or Gulf of Aden​

The Italian equivalent of RAF Coastal Command did have an anti-shipping aircraft. It was the Cant. Z.506 tri-motor seaplanes, which AIUI were very good aircraft for their type and 95 were on strength in June 1940, but AIUI without effective torpedoes. I think that another 95 S.M.79s would have been a better investment.

It's main maritime patrol aircraft was the Can't Z.501 a single-engine flying boat that first flew in 1934. 202 were on strength in June 1940, but would 202 modified S.M.79 medium bombers have been better?

Allied to the above the Italians need to develop an effective dive bomber and have a force of at least 150 to support the torpedo bombers. Therefore, the TTL S.M.85 has to be fit for purpose. The OTL aircraft first flew at the end of 1936 and the Regia Aeronautica had 32 on strength in June 1940.
 
The Italians should have adopted the ZB-26 as their squad LMG instead of the godawful Breda:

But this will also mean offend the industrialist that get a lot of money with the contract of the armed forces, sure they deliver obsolete product with abysmal delay and usually shoddy craftmanships...but the entire point is make them happy so they don't cause trouble to Benny, not having well equipped armed forces
 
Major Mallory would need to be a desert expert instead of a mountaineer, but the plot could be very similar.;)
Tobruk was on the TV recently.

I didn't watched it but IIRC the mission included knocking out the coast defence guns at Trobruk.

If I have remembered correctly I should have written, Assab instead of Tobruk. And instead of Major Mallory it would have been Rock Hudson's Tobruk character.;)

On the subject of the Guns of Navarone has anyone else noticed the following? Is it me, but are the British destroyers really American Fletchers, but when they are being engaged by "the guns" they change into models of British Javelin class destroyers?
 
Major Mallory would need to be a desert expert instead of a mountainer, but the plot could be very similar.;)
I forgot that Mallory was his name. Was that a nod to George Mallory? I recently learned that Trafford Leigh-Mallory was his younger brother.
 

Deleted member 1487

But this will also mean offend the industrialist that get a lot of money with the contract of the armed forces, sure they deliver obsolete product with abysmal delay and usually shoddy craftmanships...but the entire point is make them happy so they don't cause trouble to Benny, not having well equipped armed forces
Give them the license and the government pays the fee?
 

Driftless

Donor
I forgot that Mallory was his name. Was that a nod to George Mallory? I recently learned that Trafford Leigh-Mallory was his younger brother.

I'd bet that was the inspiration. George Mallory was the world's most famous mountaineer till Edmund Hillary and Tenzing Norgay
 

SwampTiger

Banned
I am not a fan of nationalization of industries. However, Italy, the nation, would have benefited from aircraft and weapons industry consolidation/reorganization. Italy did have a proto-LST design. It did not develop a landing craft, despite ruling many islands and having neighbors with extensive coastlines.
 
Sounds like something that could be solved by nationalization of Breda and some extended stay in prison for the owner.

Oh sure, but honestly if one must go that way, Ansaldo is the first of the list...the big two reason that there were only wielded armor for the tank and even in 43 they had no tank with cast armour was for the cost of changing all the production line and the fact that they can bill more work hour to the army, plus the top brass perfectly know how obsolete were the vehicle bought but were ordered to take it for political reason as Ansaldo hold a lot of political influence.
Honestly, if you want a more fitter italian army...not considering avoiding the Ethiopian invasion and the partecipation to the Spanish civil war to not waste resource needed for the modernization, make of the Ansaldo direction board some example will greatly improve things
 

Deleted member 1487

I am not a fan of nationalization of industries. However, Italy, the nation, would have benefited from aircraft and weapons industry consolidation/reorganization. Italy did have a proto-LST design. It did not develop a landing craft, despite ruling many islands and having neighbors with extensive coastlines.
They did nationalize Breda post-war.

Oh sure, but honestly if one must go that way, Ansaldo is the first of the list...the big two reason that there were only wielded armor for the tank and even in 43 they had no tank with cast armour was for the cost of changing all the production line and the fact that they can bill more work hour to the army, plus the top brass perfectly know how obsolete were the vehicle bought but were ordered to take it for political reason as Ansaldo hold a lot of political influence.
Honestly, if you want a more fitter italian army...not considering avoiding the Ethiopian invasion and the partecipation to the Spanish civil war to not waste resource needed for the modernization, make of the Ansaldo direction board some example will greatly improve things
I think we're well on our way toward improving the Italian industry/military then.
 

SwampTiger

Banned
The ship building industry had begun welding of ships. Sesia class Motor Cisternas, actually landing ships, included one riveted hull and three welded hulls. The welded hulls were 300 tons lighter than the riveted Sesia. Sesia laid down 1933. Not sure when Garigliano was laid down. Both commissioned in 1934. ISTR the first Italian welded hull was launched in the early 1920's.
 
Also, completely ditch the Breda 37 in favour of the Breda 38. It's lighter, simpler, doesn't required greased rounds, and feeds from enclosed magazines (which had a larger capacity than the Breda 37's clips).

Or, even better idea, make a Breda-SAFAT in 8mm Breda for the infantry.
 

Deleted member 1487

Or, even better idea, make a Breda-SAFAT in 8mm Breda for the infantry.
The aircraft version was already 2kg heavier than the Breda 30 and making it into an infantry weapon would jack it up even further before modifying it for 8mm Mauser.
You could have a much lighter ZB26 in 8mm Mauser, which would be easier to modify for the 8mm Breda if you wanted to, a lot easier.
 
Might rephrase this as, "...average Italian fighting man liked his adversary nations better than his allies...a whole lot better"

The Italian Army’s problem wasn’t they loved or even liked the British and Americans or hated their allies.

The average Italian soldier felt their officers and generals had little respect for them and considered them canon fodder. They also felt their government didn’t have their back at all and was handing them greatly substandard food and equipment.

The Italian soldiers when better led in late ‘41 and ‘42 actually showed some tenacity compared to the epic fail that was 1940 for them.
 

Deleted member 1487

The Italian Army’s problem wasn’t they loved or even liked the British and Americans or hated their allies.

The average Italian soldier felt their officers and generals had little respect for them and considered them canon fodder. They also felt their government didn’t have their back at all and was handing them greatly substandard food and equipment.

The Italian soldiers when better led in late ‘41 and ‘42 actually showed some tenacity compared to the epic fail that was 1940 for them.
Generally speaking their supply situation in later years was better than in 1940 when Mussolini assumed the war was nearly over and didn't have to worry about serious combat just having boots on the ground to get a place at the negotiating table. 1943 was a different ball game of course due to material losses on all fronts being so bad, as well as the loss of so many of their best men.
 
The aircraft version was already 2kg heavier than the Breda 30 and making it into an infantry weapon would jack it up even further before modifying it for 8mm Mauser.
You could have a much lighter ZB26 in 8mm Mauser, which would be easier to modify for the 8mm Breda if you wanted to, a lot easier.
I'm not talking about the LMG role. I'm talking about the MMG role, as an alternative to the Breda 37 (which weighted a whopping 19.4kg and was generally a PoS).
 

Deleted member 1487

I'm not talking about the LMG role. I'm talking about the MMG role, as an alternative to the Breda 37 (which weighted a whopping 19.4kg and was generally a PoS).
Ah, in that case that would make sense, but at that point they might as well just use the 7.7mm, as you could use captured British ammo, and trying to convert it to a non-rimmed cartridge would require some significant changes that might mean it couldn't be made on the same production lines.
 
Ah, in that case that would make sense, but at that point they might as well just use the 7.7mm, as you could use captured British ammo, and trying to convert it to a non-rimmed cartridge would require some significant changes that might mean it couldn't be made on the same production lines.
This is true, but part of me thinks 8mm Breda is really cool.
 
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