Fisher's 1882 Battlecruiser

In the post here

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/all...882-battle-cruisers-hms-nonsuch-an-t8794.html

John describes a proposal by Fisher in 1882 for a fast all big gun ship

Fisher’s second warship project was a new concept which he named HMS Nonsuch. This ship would have a top speed of 18 knots, making her the fastest warship of the period bar none. She would combine the turret layouts of the then current Dreadnought and Inflexible creating a warship with four twin gun turrets with an eight-gun broadside and (theoretically) six guns able to fire dead ahead and astern. This ship would have at least twice the firepower of any warship either in service or planned and a speed that ensured complete tactical control during any potential one on one duel against any foreign rival.

It is unknown what guns Nonsuch was intended to have, but by 1882 the Royal Navy had finally returned to breach loaders and the available latest guns were 12in, 13.5in and 16.25in. I have come across the suggestion before that she was to have mounted 12in guns, but it seems to me that 13.5in was more likely as that was the latest and most modern gun available to the Royal Navy and as such was slated to arm four of the six new ‘Admiral’ Class ironclads that were under construction or soon to be laid down. The first Admiral (Collingwood) had 4x12in guns and the sixth (Benbow) ended up with 2x16.25in guns instead of 4x13.5in due to a shortage of 13.5in guns.

It is not known at this time what the armour layout for Nonsuch would have been, but, I believe that it would probably have been a development of Inflexible’s “all our nothing” arrangement. It should be noted that the word “nonesuch” means the same as the word “incomparable”. The armour on Fisher’s much later HMS Incomparable project does seem to have been influenced by the Inflexible’s armour scheme. Also, Fisher’s two Nonpareil (again this means the same as nonesuch) projects of 1908 and 1912 both appear to have “all or nothing” armour scheme’s.

The concept of Nonsuch made it at least as far as the DNC (Barnaby), who rejected it, not because the design wasn’t feasible, but on the grounds that it would make every ship in the Royal Navy obsolescent.
The following is a note Fisher sent to Barnaby in January 1883:

“I have delayed sending you this letter hoping to find copy of a brief article I wrote on H.M. Ironclad “Nonsuch” of 18 knots, after seeing your design A; I can’t find it, and have written for the original, which I will send for your amusement. I don’t think your argument is a sound one as to the “degradation of our other ironclads by the construction of an 18-knotter.” Isn’t the principle right to make each succeeding ironclad an improvement and as perfect as you can?
THERE IS NO PROGRESS IN UNIFORMITY!!
We have enough of the Admiral class of ship. Now try your hand on a “Nonsuch” (of vast speed!).
In violent haste,
Ever yours,
J. A. F.
“Build few, and build fast, Each one better than the last.””

It is interesting to note that Fisher was still preaching the exact same principles 30 years later in letters to Winston Churchill. Also, of course, that he eventually did make the Royal Navy’s existing fleet obsolescent with the commissioning of his own HMS Dreadnought in 1906.

Further it should be noted that the first of the Admiral class would not enter service for a further four and a half years after this note was written. Is this an indication of Fisher’s views on the design? I have a suspicion Fisher was not fond of the low freeboard, which could indicate that Nonsuch had a high freeboard for good seakeeping: A factor of ship design Fisher was very strong champion of.

The last thing that needs to be noted is that Fisher wrote an article on the Nonsuch concept and presumably also forwarded the full details of the design to the Admiralty. This increases the chances that the full details of this design still exist and are buried somewhere in the National Archives at Kew or perhaps the Admiralty Library at Portsmouth. I will have to keep an eye out for them during my research trips



So what are the implications of Fisher's design getting the go ahead?
 

Driftless

Donor
What's the next counter-move and by whom? France? Russia? Maybe Italy? Probably too soon for Germany and certainly too soon for the US.
 
The design is not so revolutionary for the time. The Russians launch the Nakhimov in 1885 with a speed of 17 knots and 8 8 inch guns. Its speculation that Nonesuch would have had bigger guns. Even if it did, the large guns of the 1880s were cumbersome, inaccurate and lacked range Smokeless powder hadn't been introduced, there were no range finders or telescopic lenses.
In the late 1880s and early 90's there is a race to lower calibers which proved far better guns. Battleships would sport calibers as low as 10in in the 1890s and Fisher was unsure of the caliber he wanted for Dreadnought
 
In the tactical environment of the 1880s such a ship made sense, but it would be soon obsoleted by the introduction of QF guns which marked the pre-dreadnought, which would rip apart any ship with an all-or-nothing armor scheme with weight of fire, while the inaccurate and slow-reloading guns of Fisher's ships would only inflict minor damage in damage in return.

Such ships aren't really revolutionary, the Italians laid down a number of ships, such as the Italia-class or the Caio Duilio-class, with the same focus of heavy guns and high speed. They were rendered obsolete by the quick firing, smokeless powder revolution, which was just as much of a change in armament and tactics as the big gun revolution was a few decades later.

So not much changes with such a ship being laid down, since in a few years it'll be obsolete anyway.
 

Wolf1965

Donor
An all-big-gun battleship highly dependend on better fire control and that was simply not there in 1882. Back then battles were supposed to happen at much shorter ranges where the medium caliber guns had the power to penetrate hulls easily while having a better rate of fire.
If everybody believed that this was a great advantage which is not a given at the time the dreadnaught race would look differently. At that time GB had a much greater lead in industry and construction, no other power could have matched the UK. Part of the battleship race urgency came from the fact that Germany had, by that time, acquired the industry to match English industry if they wanted. In 1882 this would not be the case.
 
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