I took all of your advice and did a lot of research on the Confederate economic and social patterns and went to different websites too look at different things. All I need is ideas of Confederate army, agriculture, and naval Equipment, Uniforms? Possible alliances(U.N., NATO, Other nations)?possible military leaders? possible exports of products from the Confederacy?
Final Confederate Question
- Thread starter ConfederateFly
- Start date
Good to hear it.
Well, for most of the things, we would need to know the general direction the TL goes in. For example, if the CSA and the USA become friendly, and a NATO-type alliance is created, I see no reason that it wouldn't join. It would almost certainly join a United Nations-type organization.
In the most plausible scenario, to me at least, I see the CSA becoming a fairly powerful nation down the road, but not attaining the USA's level of power. I could see a Confederate navy with a modern fleet, with perhaps even a carrier or two. Technology, I suspect, would be roughly on the same page with OTL, give or take five years or so.
Conditions around the world, like I said, are hard to know without knowing the general direction of your TL. For example, the Middle East situation might be completely different, if say, the USA and Germany sided together against the CSA, France, and Britain and won World War 1.
So, I would probably see the modern CSA as the USA's kid brother, and while not being as powerful as the USA, it could very well be at the very least, a second-rate world power.
Well, for most of the things, we would need to know the general direction the TL goes in. For example, if the CSA and the USA become friendly, and a NATO-type alliance is created, I see no reason that it wouldn't join. It would almost certainly join a United Nations-type organization.
In the most plausible scenario, to me at least, I see the CSA becoming a fairly powerful nation down the road, but not attaining the USA's level of power. I could see a Confederate navy with a modern fleet, with perhaps even a carrier or two. Technology, I suspect, would be roughly on the same page with OTL, give or take five years or so.
Conditions around the world, like I said, are hard to know without knowing the general direction of your TL. For example, the Middle East situation might be completely different, if say, the USA and Germany sided together against the CSA, France, and Britain and won World War 1.
So, I would probably see the modern CSA as the USA's kid brother, and while not being as powerful as the USA, it could very well be at the very least, a second-rate world power.
What i was trying not to do a TL where they join the French and British . I was going to have them help the Confederacy, but not a major alliance between GB and CSA , but for a couple years a alliance with France maybe till the Franco Prussian War
David S Poepoe
Banned
ConfederateFly said:
Okay, ConfederateFly, do you have ANY IDEA how many times you violated what you just said?
I didn't get any input from anybody else before I posted my Confederate Black and Gray ATL. I just did the work and posted it.
David S Poepoe
Banned
Ace Venom said:And you got a lot of negative input from me, I might add. All in good fun, though.
Seriously, post a TL. It doesn't matter if people tear it to shreds. If he can withstand my Constitutional arguments, you can withstand anything.
I got creative input from you. You asked questions that I had to defend. And that was after I posted.
But Ace is right. Just post an ATL. The more often you post the better you'll get. Practice makes perfect.
CSA part 1
Southern Revolution to Spanish Confederate War
(1861 goes same as our OTL)
Sept 1862 Battle of Sharpsburg, General Lee executes Special Order 109. McCllean loses over 20,000 troops in several horrible front on charges. McCllean retreats and Lee follows. McCllean arrives in Washington while KLee reinforced with Marylanders sympathetic to the Southern Cause. Lee dispacthes Maj General Dick Ewell takes a couple of brigades to threaten Pennslyvania. In the West General A.S. Johnston after his loss at the Battle of Shiloh he retreats to Vicksburg. Meanwhile Lee starts his attacks on Washington D.C. On the night of Dec. 25 Lee makes a Final assault on Washington. Maj General John B. Gordon and his Brigade break the Center and House to house fighting insues. The Confederates fight for every piece of Ground. Lincoln looks through his window and sees an imposing Confederate Figure getting off his horse and walking to the front door of the White House. Lincoln greets Gen. Lee and start some small talk, but Lee gets to it and tells Lincoln that the U.S. has lost. Finally in January Lee sends Longstreet West to help Johnston and break the siege at Vicksburg. There is a Peace Conference at Brussels. The Confederates sent newly made General-in-Chief R.E. Lee, Admiral Rapheal Semmes, and Vice President Stephans. The Treaty of Brussels:
1 Plecibites in Maryland, Kentucky, Missouri, Delaware, and New Mexico Terr. will be held with special commissioners to determine there status
2 Indian Terr. will got to the Confederacy
3 A 25 wide mile Demilitarized zone will be established upon the new borders
1864 Plecibites are held with Special Commissioners from Brazil and Russia. Maryland, Delaware decide to stay in the Union while Missouri, Kentucky and the New Mexico Terr. Vote to go to the Confederacy.
1865-1868: The Confederacy joins a Alliance with France and Mexico. With the Confederacy helping to protect Emperor Maximillians Regime the French will provide Financial Support. The French build 5 iron cruisers, 2 wooden cruisers, and 3 Seagoing Ironclads for the Confederacy. The Confederacy contracts with Treadgar Iron Works for Confederate Ordanace Officers to create a Breechloading Rifle and a Breechloading Cannon. In 1868 They create The Confederate Breechloader Rifle model 1868 and the Treadgar model 1868 Steel Breechloading Cannon. The Bellona, Treadgar, and Bibb Iron Works start creating these new weapons. election of 1868 the Confederacy has 2 parties the Southern Nationalists and the Old Line Whigs. The Old Line Whigs put up John Breckinridge/Albert Gallatian Brown and the
Southern Nationalists put up Robert Barnwell Rhett/William Porcher Miles. Rhett and Miles win.
1869 Franco Prussian War France withdraws troops from Mexico. The Confederates prop up Maximillian. The rebels take Southern Mexico. The Confederates manage to hold Baja California, Sonora, and Chiuhuhua. The President puts up a bill to make the Mexican States into Confederate States. The Bill passes in both houses. Baja California is turned into the state of Pacifica and Sonora and Chiuhuhua are combined to become the State of New Georgia.
1870-1875 The Confederacy looks towards Asia and Africa as new markets. The Confederacy starts to import Oriental Teas, Oriental food, and many other asian things for Cotton and Tobbacco. In 1874 a new election brings in a new Southern Nationalist team of William Porcher Miles/Jabez Curry. In 1875 A friendship treaty is signed with the Kingdom of Hawaii. The Confederacy starts to modernize there Navy by gaining a lot more seagoing Ironclads. The Confederacy gains an interest in Nicraguga and install a pro-Confederate President. They gain rights to build a canal.
1877 The CSA finishes the Nicragugian canal. The First ship to pass through is the Seagoing ironclad the CSS Texas
1880 The CSA has another Southern Nationalist President in Howell Cobb/Thomas Bocock. The CSA starts eyeing the Carribean and Asia for some oversea posseions of there own. The Confederates contract with GB to build them 3 new steel big gun Cruisers.
1883 The CSS Georgia blows up in Havana harbor. The CSA declares war on Spain. The Pacific Flotilla sails from Ensenada with its 15 ships and 2 of the new big gun cruisers for Manila. The CSA contracts Southern Dixie Steamship line to sail the Troops to Cuba. The Troops arrive on Cienfuegos Beach. It takes only 3 months for the CSA to take all of Cuba with thier more advanced weaponery. The CSA Pacific Flotilla destroys the Manila Squadron. They land 7,500 Marines in Manila and 10 days later it falls.
Treaty of Singapore
1 The CSA gets Cuba, Puerto Rico, and the Phillipines.
part 2 later.....
comments please!!!
Southern Revolution to Spanish Confederate War
(1861 goes same as our OTL)
Sept 1862 Battle of Sharpsburg, General Lee executes Special Order 109. McCllean loses over 20,000 troops in several horrible front on charges. McCllean retreats and Lee follows. McCllean arrives in Washington while KLee reinforced with Marylanders sympathetic to the Southern Cause. Lee dispacthes Maj General Dick Ewell takes a couple of brigades to threaten Pennslyvania. In the West General A.S. Johnston after his loss at the Battle of Shiloh he retreats to Vicksburg. Meanwhile Lee starts his attacks on Washington D.C. On the night of Dec. 25 Lee makes a Final assault on Washington. Maj General John B. Gordon and his Brigade break the Center and House to house fighting insues. The Confederates fight for every piece of Ground. Lincoln looks through his window and sees an imposing Confederate Figure getting off his horse and walking to the front door of the White House. Lincoln greets Gen. Lee and start some small talk, but Lee gets to it and tells Lincoln that the U.S. has lost. Finally in January Lee sends Longstreet West to help Johnston and break the siege at Vicksburg. There is a Peace Conference at Brussels. The Confederates sent newly made General-in-Chief R.E. Lee, Admiral Rapheal Semmes, and Vice President Stephans. The Treaty of Brussels:
1 Plecibites in Maryland, Kentucky, Missouri, Delaware, and New Mexico Terr. will be held with special commissioners to determine there status
2 Indian Terr. will got to the Confederacy
3 A 25 wide mile Demilitarized zone will be established upon the new borders
1864 Plecibites are held with Special Commissioners from Brazil and Russia. Maryland, Delaware decide to stay in the Union while Missouri, Kentucky and the New Mexico Terr. Vote to go to the Confederacy.
1865-1868: The Confederacy joins a Alliance with France and Mexico. With the Confederacy helping to protect Emperor Maximillians Regime the French will provide Financial Support. The French build 5 iron cruisers, 2 wooden cruisers, and 3 Seagoing Ironclads for the Confederacy. The Confederacy contracts with Treadgar Iron Works for Confederate Ordanace Officers to create a Breechloading Rifle and a Breechloading Cannon. In 1868 They create The Confederate Breechloader Rifle model 1868 and the Treadgar model 1868 Steel Breechloading Cannon. The Bellona, Treadgar, and Bibb Iron Works start creating these new weapons. election of 1868 the Confederacy has 2 parties the Southern Nationalists and the Old Line Whigs. The Old Line Whigs put up John Breckinridge/Albert Gallatian Brown and the
Southern Nationalists put up Robert Barnwell Rhett/William Porcher Miles. Rhett and Miles win.
1869 Franco Prussian War France withdraws troops from Mexico. The Confederates prop up Maximillian. The rebels take Southern Mexico. The Confederates manage to hold Baja California, Sonora, and Chiuhuhua. The President puts up a bill to make the Mexican States into Confederate States. The Bill passes in both houses. Baja California is turned into the state of Pacifica and Sonora and Chiuhuhua are combined to become the State of New Georgia.
1870-1875 The Confederacy looks towards Asia and Africa as new markets. The Confederacy starts to import Oriental Teas, Oriental food, and many other asian things for Cotton and Tobbacco. In 1874 a new election brings in a new Southern Nationalist team of William Porcher Miles/Jabez Curry. In 1875 A friendship treaty is signed with the Kingdom of Hawaii. The Confederacy starts to modernize there Navy by gaining a lot more seagoing Ironclads. The Confederacy gains an interest in Nicraguga and install a pro-Confederate President. They gain rights to build a canal.
1877 The CSA finishes the Nicragugian canal. The First ship to pass through is the Seagoing ironclad the CSS Texas
1880 The CSA has another Southern Nationalist President in Howell Cobb/Thomas Bocock. The CSA starts eyeing the Carribean and Asia for some oversea posseions of there own. The Confederates contract with GB to build them 3 new steel big gun Cruisers.
1883 The CSS Georgia blows up in Havana harbor. The CSA declares war on Spain. The Pacific Flotilla sails from Ensenada with its 15 ships and 2 of the new big gun cruisers for Manila. The CSA contracts Southern Dixie Steamship line to sail the Troops to Cuba. The Troops arrive on Cienfuegos Beach. It takes only 3 months for the CSA to take all of Cuba with thier more advanced weaponery. The CSA Pacific Flotilla destroys the Manila Squadron. They land 7,500 Marines in Manila and 10 days later it falls.
Treaty of Singapore
1 The CSA gets Cuba, Puerto Rico, and the Phillipines.
part 2 later.....
comments please!!!
Valamyr
Banned
Uhm, whats the north doing during all this?
And arent things going a bit too well for the confederates there? Even assuming the victory was possible in the civil war, wouldnt the south need much more than 12 years to move from nothing to world class power? The united US didnt build the panama channel for several decades, and when they did it took many years, but the confederates can do it earlier and faster?
And theyre also getting more Spanish possessions and earlier?
*shrugs* It might be possible, but it looks like a huge stretch to me.
A bit like having New-France own the whole continent by 1850 with a 7 years war POD.
And arent things going a bit too well for the confederates there? Even assuming the victory was possible in the civil war, wouldnt the south need much more than 12 years to move from nothing to world class power? The united US didnt build the panama channel for several decades, and when they did it took many years, but the confederates can do it earlier and faster?
And theyre also getting more Spanish possessions and earlier?
*shrugs* It might be possible, but it looks like a huge stretch to me.
A bit like having New-France own the whole continent by 1850 with a 7 years war POD.
Pretty good, except, like Valamyr said, it needs to be spaced out much further. I could maybe see a Nicaraguan Canal in like... the 1910's (and that timeframe is with a heavy "Great Leap Forward" kind of program.), but not the 1870's, a mere eight years after the backwater nation got it's independance.
David S Poepoe
Banned
For starters, I think the POD has to be refined. The fortifications of Washington were formidable.
" Meanwhile Lee starts his attacks on Washington D.C. On the night of Dec. 25 Lee makes a Final assault on Washington."
This would mean frontal assaults - decimation on the order of Pickett's Charge at Gettysburg.
"5 iron cruisers, 2 wooden cruisers" - wooden cruisers would not be advisable, particularly when you are buying iron ones.
I think the Mexican states would be allowed to stew as Territories for awhile. Theres not particular reason to grant statehood.
Did you know that in nearly every similar ATL you've always managed to misspell Nicaragua? I would really look into this - have an atlas nearby. There is nothing that calls attention to a poorly worked TL other than bad research and even poorer spelling. They must speak english in Lafayette, Indiana.
"The CSA finishes the Nicragugian canal." First off, the CS wouldn't be able to afford it at the date your suggesting. Secondly, there is no way they can finish the canal within two years with the level of technology they have at the time. Take a look at how long the Panama Canal took to build and then lengthen the time, since the Nicaraguan route will be longer. Thirdly, check your spelling!
I can only reiterate that things are developing much too fast for what the Confederacy would have been capable of. One of the major questions you have to address, since it is critical to any Dixie Victorious ATL is what happens with slavery. In past ATL you have demonstrated a rather disturbing idea that the Confederacy's 'peculiar institution' would be tolerated by the Great Powers or even permitted to expand. I do not know if that represents some personal racial view, but it certainly defies logic and historical precedence.
" Meanwhile Lee starts his attacks on Washington D.C. On the night of Dec. 25 Lee makes a Final assault on Washington."
This would mean frontal assaults - decimation on the order of Pickett's Charge at Gettysburg.
"5 iron cruisers, 2 wooden cruisers" - wooden cruisers would not be advisable, particularly when you are buying iron ones.
I think the Mexican states would be allowed to stew as Territories for awhile. Theres not particular reason to grant statehood.
Did you know that in nearly every similar ATL you've always managed to misspell Nicaragua? I would really look into this - have an atlas nearby. There is nothing that calls attention to a poorly worked TL other than bad research and even poorer spelling. They must speak english in Lafayette, Indiana.
"The CSA finishes the Nicragugian canal." First off, the CS wouldn't be able to afford it at the date your suggesting. Secondly, there is no way they can finish the canal within two years with the level of technology they have at the time. Take a look at how long the Panama Canal took to build and then lengthen the time, since the Nicaraguan route will be longer. Thirdly, check your spelling!
I can only reiterate that things are developing much too fast for what the Confederacy would have been capable of. One of the major questions you have to address, since it is critical to any Dixie Victorious ATL is what happens with slavery. In past ATL you have demonstrated a rather disturbing idea that the Confederacy's 'peculiar institution' would be tolerated by the Great Powers or even permitted to expand. I do not know if that represents some personal racial view, but it certainly defies logic and historical precedence.
I agree with the fact that the South would be a pariah amoung advanced nations until it deals with the issue of slavery. Nothing short of full emancipation would be acceptable because northern interests would largely be defining what was acceptable.
I think that what the South would do that would be acceptable (for that time and place) is similar to South Africa's Black homelands, or the North's use of Reservations for native americans.
What might happen is something like this,
1. South wins its independence. (For whatever reason, maybe it wins the war, maybe North decides to let them go.)
2. Europe and the North begin to restrict use of Southern products, and there is a slight decline of living standards.
3. South determines to free the slaves and sets up segregated homelands throughout the south, but particularly in Florida and parts of West Texas.
4. As a type of payment for this 'emancipation', either Europe or the North underwrite the mechanization of southern Agricultural and mining industries.
I think that what the South would do that would be acceptable (for that time and place) is similar to South Africa's Black homelands, or the North's use of Reservations for native americans.
What might happen is something like this,
1. South wins its independence. (For whatever reason, maybe it wins the war, maybe North decides to let them go.)
2. Europe and the North begin to restrict use of Southern products, and there is a slight decline of living standards.
3. South determines to free the slaves and sets up segregated homelands throughout the south, but particularly in Florida and parts of West Texas.
4. As a type of payment for this 'emancipation', either Europe or the North underwrite the mechanization of southern Agricultural and mining industries.
I have him surviving the wound as in the same as the book Dixie Victorious by having the Torqiunet that could save his life
How about this list of Presidents
Jefferson Davis 1862-1868
Robert Barnwell Rhett 1868-1874
William Porcher Miles 1874-1880
Howell Cobb 1880-1886
John Anderson 1886-1892
States Rights Gist 1892-1898
Robert E Lee II 1898-1904
Ben Tillman 1904-1910
Woodrow Wilson 1910-1916
Hoke Smith 1916-1922
Theodore Bilbo 1922-1928
Huey Long 1928-1934
Strom Thurmond 1934-1940
Fielding Wright 1940-1946
Harry Truman 1946-1952
George Patton 1952-1958
Lydon B Johnson 1958-1964
George Wallace 1964-1970
Jackson Wilson 1970-1976
Jimmy Carter 1976-1982
Lawton Chiles 1982-1988
Jesse Helms 1988-1994
Trent Lott 1994-2000
Spencer Jefferson Lee 2000-present
Regarding Slavery I was going to have a amendment try to be passed in 1900 then finally get passed in 1904 the final year of the R.E. Lee II Presidency
Ah, I see Theodore Bilbo !
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAbilbo.htm
He would be 45 in your ATL. Seemingly a thoroughly nasty piece of work, I would expect his administration to attempt to turn back the clock on any civil rights-type legislation that's been enacted since slavery was abolished only 16 years previously.
btw who is Mr States Right Gist ?
Grey Wolf
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAbilbo.htm
He would be 45 in your ATL. Seemingly a thoroughly nasty piece of work, I would expect his administration to attempt to turn back the clock on any civil rights-type legislation that's been enacted since slavery was abolished only 16 years previously.
btw who is Mr States Right Gist ?
Grey Wolf