"Fight and be Right"

Back in civilised country. The hail of multi-posting will now end.

I thought of that, but I can't really see it happening - the OTL USSR was able to treat non-Russian peoples in its borders more or less equally because they were minorities. Even if the FWR isn't democratic and so the voting issue doesn't arise, it's still hard to see a socialist government that treats 40 million Britons and 600 million Indians as equal citzens.

Well, for all we know, the FWR might actually be an effectively Indian institution. The only thing really "British" we've seen about it is Chairman Mosley: maybe his position is analogous to that of Georgia's most notorious son. I'm not saying I think this is the case, just that we're really not sure how the FWR works, but we do have strong reasons to believe it includes most of India.

Speaking of which: on the "Workers of the world united" poster, the top-left photo shows what appears to be a South Asian woman. The chaps at the bottom also look Indian to me.

Well, we will see who is right.

It seems to me that if the war end in 1936, the Russians haven't got long between the events of the prologue and the collapse of Britain to get back in the fray.

Sadly, the PoV did not occur earlier which would make your funny theory non-impossible. At least, Russia lost against the true Central Powers of Europe and Asia, Germany and China and the lack of Caucasian flags and the simultaneous existence of an independent Kurdistan indicate no russian territorial losses but russian gains in South-West Asia.

That puzzles me: Russia loosing Ukraine is a a sure sign of bad times, yet I can't make a scenario with the Ottomans on Russia's side work in my head: that would mean that the "Russian troops in Central Anatolia" are up against Germans, who are in the enemy heartland and a long way from home... doesn't figure. But if Russia was thrashed, why would they be allowed to make gains? It does seems likely that a pragmatic Russian regime would sell out Slav compatriots in order to retain the Baku oilfields, though.
 
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I don't think an alliance which seems to consist Australia-sans-WA, New Zealand, Newfoundland, and Fiji can hold down India in a flagless state.

Just remember the DoD-verse where a substantially stronger alliance of Australia, South Africa and Ceylon did not even try to hold down India becauce it would be futile.
The mentioned states in the FabR-verse will likely only hold the other British-controlled Pacific Islands.
By the way, you forgot the Kingdom of Hawaii as a likely part of this alliance.

Well, for all we know, the FWR might actually be an effectively Indian institution. The only thing really "British" we've seen about it is Chairman Mosley: maybe his position is analogous to that of Georgia's most notorious son. I'm not saying I think this is the case, just that we're really not sure how the FWR works, but we do have strong reasons to believe it includes most of India.

Speaking of which: on the "Workers of the world united" poster, the top-left photo shows what appears to be a South Asian woman. The chaps at the bottom also look Indian to me.

During the early Soviet era many minorities were very quite overrepresented within the Soviet elite.
I would expect the early FoWR-elite being still chiefly British while the majority of the population within the new federation is non-British.

That puzzles me: Russia loosing Ukraine is a a sure sign of bad times, yet I can't make a scenario with the Ottomans on Russia's side work in my head: that would mean that the "Russian troops in Central Anatolia" are up against Germans, who are in the enemy heartland and a long way from home... doesn't figure. But if Russia was thrashed, why would they be allowed to make gains? It does seems likely that a pragmatic Russian regime would sell out Slav compatriots in order to retain the Baku oilfields, though.

Nah, I think the Russians did not lose any Caucasian territory because the Russian troops there were more successful.
Remember the Russian hengst PZ-6. This hengst was described as reliable and rugged, but outclassed by faster and more manouvrable German and Chinese hengsts.
This Russian hengst is better suited for fighting in difficult, mountainous terrain like Caucasia or Anatolia where reliablilty is more important than manoeuvrability, while fighting in ukrainian plains is far more problematic.
 
One day, somebody will make a TL with shiny happy China joining forces with shiny happy America.

I wonder how happy China is, though. The existence of Estonia and "Livonia", rather than some sort of Baltic German neo-Teutonic oligarchy suggest that the Kaiserreich is a better egg than its OTL counterpart of 1918 (which is not terribly difficult, of course), but I wonder just what China looks like.
 
I wonder how happy China is, though. The existence of Estonia and "Livonia", rather than some sort of Baltic German neo-Teutonic oligarchy suggest that the Kaiserreich is a better egg than its OTL counterpart of 1918 (snip)

How do you know? These may as well be client states with puppet kings - during WW I OTL, Germany planned to install a German prince as King Mindaugas II. of Lithuania, so who knows what they did in TTL Estonia and Livonia?
 
How do you know? These may as well be client states with puppet kings - during WW I OTL, Germany planned to install a German prince as King Mindaugas II. of Lithuania, so who knows what they did in TTL Estonia and Livonia?

I think his point is that the names used suggest a fig leaf of local rule, which is more than "Bwahaha, we're evil 1!1!1!" that we got from OTL's Kaiserreich in the region.
 
I think his point is that the names used suggest a fig leaf of local rule, which is more than "Bwahaha, we're evil 1!1!1!" that we got from OTL's Kaiserreich in the region.

Precisely. Anyway, there's nothing inherently wrong with bringing in a German to be your king. Worked fine for us! The problem with the late-war Mitteleuropa scheme was that Germany was of course building states that mirrored what it had become: reactionary militarist dictatorship monarchies. Witness the coup in Ukraine, and that's leaving aside the issue of it being not to far towards something disturbingly Lebesraumish with the Germany of 1918, what with ethnic German dominance in the Baltic and plundering Ukrainian grain. If 30s Germany ITTL is a liberal constitutional monarchy ruled by social democrats, which is not certain but certainly possible, then it building a Lithuania and so on as mirrors of itself is good news and infinitely preferable to unFalangist Russian rule.

It's poor Poland that gets short shrift in this scenario, as Magnificate observed earlier. The German Empire can be as liberal, democratic, social, shiny, happy, and nice as it likes and it's still the German Empire. It has a distinct shape. That shape is positively unsightly without Greater Poland.
 
I think his point is that the names used suggest a fig leaf of local rule, which is more than "Bwahaha, we're evil 1!1!1!" that we got from OTL's Kaiserreich in the region.
It's poor Poland that gets short shrift in this scenario, as Magnificate observed earlier. The German Empire can be as liberal, democratic, social, shiny, happy, and nice as it likes and it's still the German Empire. It has a distinct shape. That shape is positively unsightly without Greater Poland.
I wouldn't be supriced if Germany directly annexed parts of Congress Poland as well, for example the Łódź region. Also, fallowing Faeelin's train of thought, we have "Poland" not "Kingdom of Poland", what does that imply?
 
I wouldn't be supriced if Germany directly annexed parts of Congress Poland as well, for example the Łódź region. Also, fallowing Faeelin's train of thought, we have "Poland" not "Kingdom of Poland", what does that imply?

Hmm. Denmark and Sweden aren't listed as "kingdoms" and I see no obvious reason for them to abolish their monarchies, so it may be arbitrary.

Why the annexations? I don't think "Bwahahaha!" Kaiserreich annexed anything directly, in fact IIRC they specifically turned downa petition from the small German minority there to be annexed, and we're reasonably sure this Kaiserreich is more sympathetic.
 
Oh, and as it was being asked about upthread, here's a map of Canada, c.1940. Credit for the flag goes to PC Switaj- thanks Scott!

We got a fjord! we got a fjord! We got a fjord! I was going to say 1940 was too soon to drop the Red Ensign, but given the whole FWR thing it's probably not that bad. Just two comments: By 1940 I suspect Quebec would have gotten its hands on Ungava, and (french minorities aside) StP&M probably wouldn't end up part of Quebec - in the 1890s the French Canadians hadn't yet resigned themselves to only ever having the one province. My vote is for Newfoundland to get it, not least since that keeps the whole fisheries thing under control.

...Good God, EdT, you put waaay too much work into the photoshops for this. I am humbled. :cool:
 
Is TTL France the home coutry of the greatest Zeppelins and are Zeppelins differently termed?

Zeppelins are "Dirigibles" ITTL; they are indeed rather popular in France.


Thus, it should read "L'Ardèche", not "La Ardèche"

Yep, realised that depressingly quickly and have changed for future use. Perils of posting at half eleven in the evening...


Speaking of good design transcending universes, it doesn't matter how differant Germany has become, how early the PoD is, Germany is Stahlhelms! :D

Of course, pickelhaubes are so 1914... Plus, it's a design that seems to work well, so a certain amount of timeline convergence is plausible I think.


I think FWR and failed "state" are the only really likely options, with the independent states being Chinese clients (speaking of which, maybe Tibet is more independent from Beijing than Mongolia because Britain grabbed it at some point before the Great War, and China took it back?).

Seems possible; as for Tibet, the Great Game goes rather differently ITTL as you might expect, and Francis Younghusband has to do something in his summer holidays...


I don't think an alliance which seems to consist Australia-sans-WA, New Zealand, Newfoundland, and Fiji can hold down India in a flagless state. And if the Axis of Stahlhelms took India, one would expect the whole thing to go the way of Manipur: local monarchies into small Chinese puppet states.

Just remember the DoD-verse where a substantially stronger alliance of Australia, South Africa and Ceylon did not even try to hold down India becauce it would be futile.

The mentioned states in the FabR-verse will likely only hold the other British-controlled Pacific Islands.

By the way, you forgot the Kingdom of Hawaii as a likely part of this alliance.


Don't forget South Africa, which is another potential member of any post-Imperial British successor alliance. Either way though, they'd find it difficult to hold down India without significant local support or a lot of troops that have appeared from somewhere.

Oh, and Hawaii is likelier to be an American protectorate than a British one, barring something dramatic.


Well, for all we know, the FWR might actually be an effectively Indian institution. The only thing really "British" we've seen about it is Chairman Mosley: maybe his position is analogous to that of Georgia's most notorious son. I'm not saying I think this is the case, just that we're really not sure how the FWR works, but we do have strong reasons to believe it includes most of India.

Speaking of which: on the "Workers of the world united" poster, the top-left photo shows what appears to be a South Asian woman. The chaps at the bottom also look Indian to me.

If India is in the FWR then Indians will play an increasingly major role in the running of it, that's for sure. As for the poster- what's to say they aren't, say, Guyanan?



That puzzles me: Russia loosing Ukraine is a a sure sign of bad times, yet I can't make a scenario with the Ottomans on Russia's side work in my head: that would mean that the "Russian troops in Central Anatolia" are up against Germans, who are in the enemy heartland and a long way from home... doesn't figure. But if Russia was thrashed, why would they be allowed to make gains? It does seems likely that a pragmatic Russian regime would sell out Slav compatriots in order to retain the Baku oilfields, though.

I'm not going to be drawn on which side the Ottomans fight on, but you could probably spin it either way. I mean, IOTL who'd have thought countries like Romania and Italy would end up on the German side in WW2?


During the early Soviet era many minorities were very quite overrepresented within the Soviet elite.

I would expect the early FoWR-elite being still chiefly British while the majority of the population within the new federation is non-British.

Seems eminently plausible. They'll mostly all have been to Oxbridge anyhow, regardless of nationality.


I wonder how happy China is, though. The existence of Estonia and "Livonia", rather than some sort of Baltic German neo-Teutonic oligarchy suggest that the Kaiserreich is a better egg than its OTL counterpart of 1918 (which is not terribly difficult, of course), but I wonder just what China looks like.

I've actually just finished the magazine article on China over the weekend, but you'll have to wait until the TL is finished before I post it, I'm afraid; suffice to say that compared to OTL it's rather happy, though frankly that's not exactly difficult.


We got a fjord! we got a fjord! We got a fjord! I was going to say 1940 was too soon to drop the Red Ensign, but given the whole FWR thing it's probably not that bad. Just two comments: By 1940 I suspect Quebec would have gotten its hands on Ungava, and (french minorities aside) StP&M probably wouldn't end up part of Quebec - in the 1890s the French Canadians hadn't yet resigned themselves to only ever having the one province. My vote is for Newfoundland to get it, not least since that keeps the whole fisheries thing under control.

Glad you approve of *Skagway... As for the other two points, if you think that's more plausible I'll retcon- I almost gave St Pierre to Newfoundland anyhow and on Ungava I was motivated more by the desire to have a different border than considerations of plausibility.


...Good God, EdT, you put waaay too much work into the photoshops for this. I am humbled. :cool:

Glad you like them! The idea is to have a little scrapbook of stuff from within the TL to include with the finished product. Hopefully should be quite fun, give an idea of what living ITTL is like and gives me a way of working around writer's block by doing seperated but linked projects.
 
Glad you approve of *Skagway... As for the other two points, if you think that's more plausible I'll retcon- I almost gave St Pierre to Newfoundland anyhow and on Ungava I was motivated more by the desire to have a different border than considerations of plausibility.

You've already got plenty of other different border (seriously, go different provinces out west! Thank you!) and Quebecois Ungava is pretty much inevitable, I'd think.
 

maverick

Banned
Well, I might as well bump...

The alternate development of aviation makes me think of that article you posted a few years ago, "musings on the military application of the zeppelin"...would Zeppelins play military roles in the Great war in the 1930s?

(in the capacities seen in that piece, not as attack aircraft as in IOTL WWI)

Furthermore, despite awesomeness, what could keep the airplane an unviable option for a bit longer? is it the lack of a mayor war in the 1910s and 1920s, combined with the German notion of zeppelin superiority?
 
Well, I might as well bump...

Sorry- real life has got in the way a bit, but the next chapter will be on its way soon.


The alternate development of aviation makes me think of that article you posted a few years ago, "musings on the military application of the zeppelin"...would Zeppelins play military roles in the Great war in the 1930s?

(in the capacities seen in that piece, not as attack aircraft as in IOTL WWI)

Furthermore, despite awesomeness, what could keep the airplane an unviable option for a bit longer? is it the lack of a mayor war in the 1910s and 1920s, combined with the German notion of zeppelin superiority?

Well, ITTL planes lag several years behind, although by 1940 they're probably a tiny bit more advanced than their OTL equivalents in some ways thanks to the impact of the Great War. The big difference is doctrine, and it's only really in the mid-to-late 1930s that concepts like strategic bombing get going. Planes are first used in the late 1910s for things like reconnaisance and then get slightly pigeonholed for a while- this means that the concept of aircraft as mobile artillery is born earlier, but without the experience of the western front other technologies will lag- it'll take until the early 1920s for the interrupter gear to be developed, for example.

Sadly, this TL is definitely not a world of zeppelins, although for a variety of reasons lighter-than-air travel does better. ITTL I'd have thought the main uses for airships during the Great War would be for marine reconaissance and ASW work on the military side, and as a submarine-proof way of convoying materiel across the seas.
 
There will be a new chapter posted tomorrow or Thursday, so in preparation have this, which will hopefully make a useful reference point for working out what the hell is going on and where- the smaller locations are places where something significant happens during the first half of the War in Asia.

Siam-and-Corea.gif
 

Highlander

Banned
Awesome work, EdT. :cool: This has been a most fun read.

Just curious, are you still making general stand alone maps at all?
 
Just curious, are you still making general stand alone maps at all?

I will if the inspiration strikes, but at present I'm mostly concentrating on FaBR. I suspect when that's done I'll think a bit more about other TLs and scenarios to map.
 
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