"Fight and be Right"

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by EdT, Jun 1, 2008.

  1. Faeelin Lord of Ten Thousand Years

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    You did a bad, bad thing...

    Hrmm. Red Baronet. Odd title for Mosley.
    Having recently found out that the British did set up prisons/camps OTL...

    Man.

    What makes people think Germany's gone red?
     
  2. V-J Not a Donor

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    Well, in OTL, he was a Baronet and (briefly) a Socialist politician. So no. It's actually quite a predictable title. :)

    If you think of the current war as probably being one of ideology, then it makes a lot of sense.

    Edit:

     
  3. EdT Member

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    Reactionary may be a bit unfair. Afterall, the worker's interests are very important to the Government, so long as they don't do anything silly like strike or join an unauthorised Union.


    All I'll say on this is that I have views on Daddy. Dangerfield underestimates him considerably in my opinion.


    Sorry, I know there's a spot of Timeline convergence there. It mostly all happens after the conclusion of the main narrative however, so it shan't be expanded on too much.


    OTL Oswald Mosley was the 6th Baronet Ancoats, hence the 'Sir'. ITTL Oswald isn't born as 1896 comes twenty years after the PoD, but Sir Tonman Mosley is born around the same time. Imagine OTL's Oswald with a pinch of Wedgewood-Benn, if you dare consider such a thing...

    Re: Germany being Socialist/Communist, time shall tell! As I say, it's not quite as clearcut as anything we saw OTL.
     
  4. V-J Not a Donor

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    :D

    Beggar that I am, haven't read 'Strange Death'. :(
     
  5. Thande a special man who knows these things Donor

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    I'm assuming it's in OTL when he was POTUS as well, but DoD Lincoln (enough abbreviations yet?) has a plaque on the wall of the New England presidential office reading "This too shall pass".
     
  6. EdT Member

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    It's a great read and utterly deserves to be treated as a seminal work, but is very much of it's time- 70 years more perspective rather undermines Dangerfield's conclusions.

    On De Broke, if you have JSTOR or access to a university library I can really recommend an article entitled "Lord Willoughby de Broke and the Politics of Radical Toryism, 1909-1914" in the Journal of British Studies, Vol. 20, No. 1 (1980). Late Victorian/Edwardian Conservatism fascinates me, particularly the radical sort- this gives a taste of why.
     
  7. V-J Not a Donor

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    I'll have to check it out at some point.

    No JSTOR access anymore, alas. I honestly don't know that much about Broke, other than the obvious and how he made his name. Was he generally socially reactionary/conservative or a reformer?
     
  8. PCSwitaj [swit ahy] or [sweet eye]

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    Seems a very interesting world here, going off of the few hints that you have dropepd us. You have peeked my curiosity in regards to France - not at war with the United Kingdom, yet not allies either, since the the relationship is described as "frosty"...hmm... I also wonder what "Germany" looks like, since it seems they are at war with the United Kingdom, yet they are not bottled up in the Baltic Sea and the Skagerrak Straits...I look forward very much to see the geo-political situation! :D
     
  9. Archangel Battery-powered Bureaucrat

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    Nice to see you're writing a new timeline!:)

    Could it be that *Germany in this TL is a constitutional Empire with a strong dominant Social-Democratic Party? That could lead to an ideological conflict with a *British ultra-conservative government.

    It appears that the Liberal Unionists never joined the Conservatives and the Conservative's left wing split from the main party and joined the Liberal Party.
    If that's the case what happened to the left wing of the Liberals? Did they loose importance, merged with the Socialists, or both?
    Are the Socialists the ATL equivalent of the Labour Party?
     
  10. maverick Banned

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    The German Aif Force ITTL is Luftstreitkrafke...I think...anyhow, its the same as the IOTL Imperial Luftwaffe of Kaiser Wilhelm...although the communists could still use it, I doubt Germany is communist ITTL...

    Other things that can be deducted:
    -Churchill is PM in the 1890s until at least 1902...I thought he'd had been PM in the late 1880s with a POD in 1876...
    -The alternate political system, as others pointed out...sure reminds me of home, especially as I'm preparing a TL on Argentinean history soon...
    -Strong Anglo-German ties until at least the 1900s, but there's obviously been a Great war equivalent in the 1910s...that's a must in all TLs:p
     
  11. EdT Member

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    This is the interesting thing, he was fantastically reactionary but pursued this through impeccably modern political methods. Far from the anbachronistic 'backwoodsmen' Dangerfield et al paint them as, I'd argue that the Tory Diehards were organised, radical and scarily credible- you just need the right sort of Government to get them into the cabinet...


    I've tried to make things interestingly different, yes. In my view France gets a bit of a raw deal in ATLs, so I've tried to redress the balance somewhat ITTL. A neutral France obviously benefits Germany in wartime economic terms. My goal for the geopolitical situation by the 1930s ITTL is to make things plausible yet as different as possible. I've deliberately tried to make sure that everywhere has a rather different outcome compared with OTL.


    That's possible- mind you, I haven't said anything about the political makeup of Germany, so the Government could be anything from *Nazis to Prussian Junta to *Communist with anything in between...


    There's a Party re-alignment in Britain in the 1880s and 1890s, that's for sure. But the same could be said OTL. A whole range of combinations are doable. The opening posts will make this a little clearer, although the eventual outcome will only become clear about halfway through the TL. It's safe to say that none of the Parties of OTL are exactly the same however.


    Well, OTL the GDR used the term Luftstreitkrafke too. As for the things that can be deduced, some of that is relatively accurate, some rather less so. There's at least one point in there that's completely wrong.
     
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  12. maverick Banned

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    I doubt Churchill resigned as PM in the 1890s to return as Minister of the Interior, so I guess that there's nothing remotely similar to the war of 1914 ITTL, right? you've made it clear here:

    I'd just love to see what's going on with Russia in the 1930s:D

     
  13. EdT Member

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    By the way, I'd love to see a good Argentinean TL- I've been meaning to do a TL on Solano Lopez and the war of the Triple Alliance for ages, and almost went for that instead of FaBR. South America is very neglected in Alternative History IMO.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2008
  14. Dr. Strangelove a very bad, bad person Banned

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    I tip my hat, sir.
     
  15. Faeelin Lord of Ten Thousand Years

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    Two reasons I doubt it's a truly Red Germany; China. To be at the point where it could threaten India, something drastic needs to have happened. Yet in order for "Reds" to gain power, China needs to collapse somehow; if it did, it wouldn't be able to threaten Britain. Make sense?

    Meanwhile, I am thinking that America would not support a Red Germany, even if it was against a very ugly Britain.
     
  16. Cromm Crúaich Well-Known Member

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    Anticipating epicness.
     
  17. Thande a special man who knows these things Donor

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    I don't think the USA is an enemy of Britain here, just an armed neutral unsympathetic to either side.
     
  18. V-J Not a Donor

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    Cool.

    Interesting that McKenna is still knocking about and Smith (F.E, I take it?) is with the 'other side'.*

    btw, it just occured to me: butterflies mean we'll probably get Eddy Victor as King here. With what impact, if any, heaven knows.

    *All of which suggests to me, incidentally, that we'll see Randolph, with the typical restraint and judgement of his family, split the Tories. The faction opposed to him will merge with the Liberals. Someone above said that there won't be a Liberal-Unionist split, but that's basically impossible by the POD we're talking about. You will see it, and you will see the LU's merging with the Tories, but you'll also see a Tory split. Phew! Hope I'm right...

    Would be nice to see the Liberal and Conservative Party. :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2008
  19. EdT Member

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    Don't want to give too much detail, but it's fair to say the US is mildly pro-German, Ireland and the Royal Navy's attempted blockade of Germany both being issues. Mind you, German commerce-raiding pushes public opinion the other way too so it's a bit swings and roudabouts.

    Without giving too much away, a certain aspect of US political discourse is rather more prominent ITTL compared with OTL, and this also makes America a bit leery of the British.


    Let's just say that the political upheaval of late 19th Century Britain shakes out rather differently than OTL. This leads to some interesting political bedfellows! Royal politics will be rather different as well-and in a dynastic system as intimate as late Victorian Europe, small changes butterfly extremely quickly.
     
  20. maverick Banned

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    Well, If you're interested, I wrote a TL for that effect a while ago, in which the Beagle Crisis of 1978 leads to a war between Argentina and Chile (and eventually Bolivia and Peru against Chile as well)...and I also have two TLs on the subject in the working: a resurrection of my TL in which Peron dies before taking power in 1945 and one set in the late 19th century...with massive repercusions in the early 20th century...

    https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=61819

    I would also love to see anything you can make on South America...especially a TL on the War of the Triple Alliance!

    I'll also jump on the wagon and say that Germany is not communist ITTL, but knowing Edt and from reading his comments, its really hard to judge right now...