Fictional inventory of modern airforces

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by Khanzeer, Apr 8, 2019.

  1. iron Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2010
    F-22 Raptor's for Canada?
    This has probably been done here before, but I'm too lazy to hunt it down.:biggrin:
    So let's just try to imagine a way that this could become a possibility.
    It would have to involve a serious expression of interest to participate in the ATF project (on Canada's part) during the Mulroney/Reagan political era.
    I could see it as realistic that the US might allow Canada into the program, due to the NORAD protocol between our two nations and the ongoing Cold War tensions in the period. The problem would be finding the political will to fund such a procurement, since we had already spent a ton of taxpayers money buying the (then brand new) CF-18 fleet.
    To realize such an outcome would require both political willpower and foresight.
    How it (the procurement plan) would ever survive through the Chretien era is the real problem.
    For the hell of it?
    Let's just say that the CAF managed to receive 50-60 Blk30/35 F-22's in the mid 2000's, solely dedicated to the NORAD role.
    How different is this from the current fiasco with our fighter fleet?
    We would be operating about 4 Sqns of "Classic Hornets" at the moment, solely dedicated to an expeditionary role.
    The air frames would have half the hours on them and we would have a sizeable reserve fleet of low time air frames to back them up.
    The current "nightmare" is obviated because our guys doing the NORAD gig are still flying "cutting edge " tech.
    All we need is a fleet of 50-60 F-35A's to replace the CF-18's for work overseas, and we can wait until well into the 2020+ period if we spend money prudently on upgrades to the CF-18 fleet's offensive capabilities in the interim.
    There's no reason that we could not have had a rotation in and out of Mountainview and doubled the lifespan of the CF-18 fleet in such a situation.

    Never going to happen...but it's interesting to think about.
     
    Dlg123 likes this.
  2. Father Maryland Enemy of Neo Secesh Everywhere

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2007
    Location:
    The Grand Duchy of the Chesapeake
    Depending on the circumstances I could see the US effectively giving the RAF the B29's. The US decommissioned plenty of B29s right after the war. If tensions with the Soviets had started earlier (and congress had been less moronic about the UK and nuclear tech) I could see the US agreeing to give the RAF B29's as a cheap way of expanding the counter Soviet force.
     
    Dlg123 likes this.
  3. Jukra Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2007
    Location:
    Tuborg at Uborg
    SAAB Draken was still produced at late 1970's, the fighter version of Viggen, JA-37, only came in service in 1980 and included technology which well might not have got an export license to Finland, a neutral country widely seen as leaking technology to the Eastern Block.

    Lightning F2, AFAIK, did not see a long service in OTL due to various limitations.
     
  4. Jukra Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2007
    Location:
    Tuborg at Uborg
    Swedish Flygvapnet with Hornets

    After disappointment of the export sales of Viggen not materializing the Swedish government came into conclusion that domestic fighter development in the future would be
    unsustainable. The Saab 38 trainer and attack plane, however, would be developed and would even enjoy some export success as it was sold to Finland and Switzerland.

    In evaluation between new American F-16 and F-18 planes the F-18 came first thanks to it's impressive short field capabilities, multirole abilities and good radar. Thus, the initial batch of 64 Hornets was ordered in 1979. In order to gain political acceptance the plane would be license produced in Sweden with many Swedish components.

    While officially called SAAB JAS 39A, the plane was more generally known as F-18S or the marketing acronym FAR-18S (Fighter, Attack, Reconnaissance) or even as Euro-Hornet. In practice the plane was a further development of F-18L concept with Swedish radar and EW systems and ability to fire Skyflash radar missiles. Functionally it was comparable to US F-18C.

    140 F-18S were ordered by Sweden, further order cancelled by the end of the Cold War. Australia and Canada had ordered F-18A for their used, but F-18S enjoyed some export success as well. It was selected by air forces of Spain, Switzerland and - quite expected as a Draken user - Finland.

    In 1990's Saab teamed up with McDonnell Douglas, later Boeing, for the JSF competition and thus Sweden is a major contributor to F-32 Fury II.

    The last export success of F-18S has been somewhat surprising. Due to various reasons, the Canadian replacement process for their CF-18 has been extraordinarily long. Thus, as F-32 began to replace F-18S in Sweden, the aircraft maintained in mint condition were sold to Canada which hopes to use them as an interim solution before completion of their own acquisition process.

    (In OTL F-16 and F-18 were evaluated, but for many reasons, jobs being not the least important ones, the JAS was selected)
     
    Dlg123 and isayyo2 like this.
  5. steamboy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2015
    MiG-31 Firefox in Soviet service.

    Designed to be the future replacement for the MiG-25 and provide the Soviet Union with a huge edge in any air battle against NATO, the MiG-31 represented a quantum leap forwards in capabilities.
    It is believed that the Soviet Union became aware of the US F-19 ‘Spectre’ through the Volkers Spy Ring and rushed to develop a counter, using a great deal of stolen data to help speed the development of their own aircraft.

    Wanting an aircraft that could intercept the SR-71 and D-21 drone combo as well as counter the F-19 the Soviet Union threw vast amounts of resources and money into the problem. Using much of what was learned from the MiG-25 to create one of the most advanced aircraft to ever take to the skies.

    Utilizing two massive Turmansky RJ-15DB-600 turbojets as well as a still unique arrangement of six solid fuel boosters that, whilst mainly used in take off could be used in conjunction with the main engines. Although considered 'inelegant' by Western standards, the RD-15DB-600's had a clever air intake system. This helped accuratly control the engine breathing, especially at high altitude and this resulted in some truly jaw dropping performance. With the engines and SRB’s engaged the MiG-31 was capable of a short, very high altitude dash at Mach 4.02. This came at the cost of massive fuel consumption but also could push the aircraft to a maximum altitude in testing of over 131,000 feet. The MiG-31 would more normally ‘cruise’ at Mach 2.3, still far faster than most Western aircraft and a 'normal' operating altitude was anywhere from 95,000 to 105,000 feet.

    To be able to survive the heat of such high speeds, most of the fighters’ frame was made of Titanium and SS-118 (a stainless steel/nickel compound used in MiG-25 construction). Still heat was a problem, and this led to the crafts unique shape, and every effort was made to reduce drag. This included internal weapons bays and seamless angular slanting for much of the hull. This was only partially effective, and the aircrafts frame was still a giant heatsink and this destroyed its stealth capabilities as it could be easily tracked by heat seeking missiles.
    The Soviets still applied a form of radar absorbent material, and combined with its angular frame, it was quite stealthy. But, nowhere near as stealthy as the F-19. Still it reduced the range at which it was detected, making it the Soviets first 'stealth' aircraft. The MiG-31 is not a manouverable craft. In one memorable incident a MiG-31 was tracked by AWACS and it was said that 'it needed all of Siberia to turn around'.

    As an interceptor the MiG-31 was armed with six AA-9 ‘Amos’ and eight AA-11 ‘Archer’ missiles in addition to a GSh-6-23 cannon. The ‘Firebat’ has been described as an exhausting aircraft to fly and even with its then revolutionary voice activated controls for its weapons and defensive ECM, the MiG-31 is still only piloted by the most experienced and well-trained pilots. Prospective MiG-31 pilots undergo several years of training before being assigned to the aircraft.

    Fortunately for the West the sheer cost of the MiG-31 proved to be its downfall. Turf wars between the navy and airforce who wanted the titanium for their Alfa submarines or MiG-31 respectively. As well as the difficulty in casting Titanium in the right shapes, and the cost of the metals all combined to slow the production of the fighter.
    In the end the V-PVO was able to equip two squadrons with the aircraft and a total of 165 would be produced before the fall of the Soviet Union. Although often compared to the F-19 ‘Spectre’ the MiG-31 ‘Firebat’ is a different aircraft. The USAF fighter is very stealthy and was designed to operate in the SAM dense skies of a battlefield over Europe. The MiG-31 is a dedicated interceptor, designed to shoot down NATO bombers attacking the USSR. The F-19 and its F-117 ‘cousin’ are also multi-role aircraft whilst the MiG-31 cannot carry any air to ground ordinance. Whilst its performance numbers are highly impressive, the MiG-31 was simply too expensive, too revolutionary to produce in any numbers, and too limited in its role.

    The MiG-31 remains in service today despite being introduced in 1988, with squadrons based near Murmansk, Moscow, Vladivostok and Kiev. It wasn't until 2008 that a MiG-31 appeared in the West with one making an appearance at the Paris airshow. This gave Western Journalists and pilots their first ever official closeup of the MiG-31. It also dispelled many of the rumors that had swirld round the craft, including such fanciful ideas as 'thought controlled' flight assistance.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    Hope this is okay :)
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2019
  6. Simon Thread Killer Extraordinaire

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2009
    IIRC the RAF borrowed 85 B-29s in the late 1940s free of charge, the US having offered even more than that, operating them as the B.1 Washington until they were returned as the first V bombers started to arrive in the 1950s.
     
  7. Father Maryland Enemy of Neo Secesh Everywhere

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2007
    Location:
    The Grand Duchy of the Chesapeake
    Yeah thats what I was thinking of. In the aftermath of WW2 the US had way more B29s then it could use. As it was they put thousands in storage and scrapped hundreds.
     
    Dlg123 likes this.
  8. WILDGEESE WARNING: Left-handed & extremely accident prone!!!

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2013
    Location:
    WEST BROMWICH U.K.
    Personally . . . still the best looking warplane ever designed.

    Nothing has never ever come anywhere near it in looks

    Only problem the author called it the Mig-31

    Should've called it Mig-41 or 51 as there was already a Mig-31 in the pipleline

    Question . . . in this timeline do we still see it getting 'half inched' from an airbase?
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2019
    Dlg123 and steamboy like this.
  9. Peg Leg Pom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2009
    If we're including fictitious aircraft...

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  10. Peebothuhlu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2015
    At work.

    I saw the A-10 mentioned up thread.

    So a few questions.

    The American machine 'As is' would seem to rely on utilizing a LOT of depleted uranium being needed to come out of the front end.

    Given the volume and mass of the gun used.....

    What might another possible gun option be?

    To improve the derth of avionics. How much extra space (Though unsure of shifting the centre of mass) could be gained by adding Apache style 'Cheek' fairings?

    I've read some where that the A-10's bypass turbo fans aren't the best in 'Hot and humid' climes. What might other engine options be possible?

    Must admit I always thought it a shame the twin seater not being developed further.

    Cheers.
     
    Dlg123 likes this.
  11. steamboy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2015
    Gonna guess they didn't know about the real MiG-31 when making the movie :)
     
    Dlg123 and WILDGEESE like this.
  12. Ramontxo Believes San Mames is Heaven Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2014
    Location:
    San Sebastian Donostia
    About fictional planes, could the jaguar be modified to take a low bypass variant of the rb-199 Tornado engine? Am thinking of a kind of interceptor version...
     
    Dlg123 likes this.
  13. WILDGEESE WARNING: Left-handed & extremely accident prone!!!

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2013
    Location:
    WEST BROMWICH U.K.
    lols

    To be fair, his 'informants' cough, cough, . . . his sources at the Pentagon, USAF & RAF should've done a better job with the information they gave him.

    The bloody thing was test flying in '75.

    His novel wasn't published until '77

    That dodgy dossier stuff must've started then . . . not in 2003!!!

    upload_2019-5-13_12-48-45.png
     
    Dlg123 and steamboy like this.
  14. Riain Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2007
    Location:
    Straya
    The Draken was produced from 1955 to 1974, the Viggen began production in 1970.

    The Lightning F2A served until 1977, in the later years in the low level interceptor role in Germany. The primary design issue with the F2 was the guns mounted in the nose above the intake led to gas ingestion into the engine airflow, any other issues it may or may not have had were as a result of politically motivated update funds starvation. That is, if the Draken can be improved to keep it in the front line until the 90s than the Lightning can be as well, indeed its a much bigger aircraft housing a larger radar and big AAMs as well as having incredible performance in the air.
     
    Dlg123 likes this.
  15. WILDGEESE WARNING: Left-handed & extremely accident prone!!!

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2013
    Location:
    WEST BROMWICH U.K.
    I thought I recognized these babies!

    Dah . . . dah . . . dah . . . dah . . . dum dum dum dum!

    It's Destiny Angel and her mates.



    download (6).jpg


    download (7).jpg

    Brilliant!!!!
     
  16. Peg Leg Pom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2009
    The Fleet Air Arm opts for the Supermarine Seafang instead of the Seafire 47.
     
    Dlg123 and The Wooksta! like this.
  17. Jukra Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2007
    Location:
    Tuborg at Uborg
    Viggen was first produced as the attack version, AJ-37, the interceptor version, JA-37 only came into service in 1980, and had sensitive Western technologies whose export to Finland might not have been assured. As for Lightning, it was maintenance hog and ITTL Finland would have been the last user with very small user base. And, to remind, this was an ATL where Finnish air defenses would depend primarily on missiles with interceptors having only secondary role.

    As for Finnish Lightnings in a traditional, fighter based setting, well, that just might be possible. Due to trade and political reasons UK was the preferred and traditional arms trade partner in 1950's and 1960's. Some slight political changes might lead to Finnish Lightnings, such as this being a ploy to get a better deal with EFTA, and the need to signal more independence from USSR.

    This would probably not result in a very large numbers, 40 might be the highest realistic goal, with 60 being the peace treaty maximum if second-hand planes might be purchases later on in 1970's, which would depend upon a tempting upgrade package to keep Lightnings relevant. Probably Sidewinder capability, improved radar or at least programming and improved self-protection capability. This would keep the Finnish Lightnings relevant till the replacement program probably in early 1990's.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2019
    Dlg123 likes this.
  18. Riain Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2007
    Location:
    Straya
    My point is that given the Draken is out of production from 1974 having it in the Finnish fleet in the 80s means a major upgrade programme. Now if Finland is going to undertake a major upgrade on a fighter it makes more sense to upgrade the Lightning fleet as it is a far more capable aircraft than the Draken.
     
    Dlg123 likes this.
  19. Uruk Meatshield of KGS

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2011
    In what way is the Lightning far more capable than Draken?
     
    Dlg123 likes this.
  20. Riain Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2007
    Location:
    Straya
    In basic terms its a case of bigger is better. The lightning is almost twice the weight of the draken, meaning things like it has a bigger radar for longer range and more powerful weapons, which would make a massive difference with a mid life update. The lighting is famously fast climbing and accelerating, which would give great advantage is air to air combat and likely more important than turning circle. The lightning has about 2800l of fuel per engine while the draken has about 3500l of fuel, so the draken has about a 2 hour flight endurance compared to 1.5 hours of the lightning.
     
    Dlg123 and Zen9 like this.