Fictional inventory of modern airforces

[NOMISYRRUC]

A different POD of course could be the RAF staying in Ireland post Treaty as the RN did at the Treaty Ports, strangely the Irish Provisional Government were actually open to this, but while the RN was represented at the Treaty Talks the RAF weren't. If they had stayed there would be more built up airbases and potentially defences while the DF might have a bit of a clue about what would be needed.

The RAF might set up a flying boat base in Ireland.

My guess is that it would be in place of the OTL RAF Pembroke, which was located in the former HM Dockyard, Pembroke. Therefore, my guess is that it would be part of or close to what was then called Queenstown or more likely Berehaven, because Berehaven is further to the west.

I don't see anything else being done before middle of the 1930s.

 

[sparky42]

The RAF might set up a flying boat base in Ireland.

My guess is that it would be in place of the OTL RAF Pembroke, which was located in the former HM Dockyard, Pembroke. Therefore, my guess is that it would be part of or close to what was then called Queenstown or more likely Berehaven, because Berehaven is further to the west.

I don't see anything else being done before middle of the 1930s.

It would be Cork harbour, they already had bases from the RNAS days, the shed for the boats is still in use on the Whitegate side of the harbour, while the former USN flying base is on the other side with the Ramp still there, given both would be relatively close to Camden and Carlisle forts for basing/support. On the other hand before the War of Independence the RFC was building up a base to the East of the Harbour in Killeagh for airships so maybe there? Given they alreay had bases it coul just be sustaining them in the harbour, there's also Balonnel and Gormanston on the east coast.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Wonder if you had a POD of both better Anglo-Irish relations and a more active DF whether or not some additional industrial capacity could have been built up in Ireland at the time?

I don't have a clue about better Anglo-Irish relations and a more active DF.

For some additional industrial capacity, the best that I can think of is 1936 and Expansion Scheme F.

This is about the time that the British airframe and engine makers started to build new factories in areas of high unemployment. For example Short Brothers started Short & Harland in cooperation with Harland & Wolf. So the POD could be that a British firm builds a factory in Ireland.

And there was the Shadow Factory scheme that was started at the same time. I recently put my foot in it by saying that Ireland had no motor industry to speak of between the wars, only to be put right in no uncertain terms. So there's the possibility of Ford building aircraft and aero engines at their Cork factory. Ford had some recent experience of aircraft manufacturing, which might be helpful.

 

[Pangur]

Agreed.

That's why I'm thinking about doing a IDF/N (Irish Navy) on the 'Alternate Warships' thread. Unlike the UK I was thinking of putting their patrol aircraft in with the naval service, US Navy style.

Much obliged!

OK, that makes sense. I have been thinking out how to get some subs in the context Sparky42`s Ireland ISOTed to 1912 and came to the conclusion that its actually doable

 

[sparky42]

OK, that makes sense. I have been thinking out how to get some subs in the context Sparky42`s Ireland ISOTed to 1912 and came to the conclusion that its actually doable

A major issue with Ireland getting subs would be the Anglo-Irish relationship again, unless Ireland is closely aligned with the UK I can't see the RN or Westminster being happy with Dublin having sub capacity. Also sustaining the training facilities would be hard for Ireland, maybe use the RN's in such a case? My ISOT makes use of the massive gap between the ISOT to even make it a thought, though I sense we're going off topic...

 

[Pangur]

A major issue with Ireland getting subs would be the Anglo-Irish relationship again, unless Ireland is closely aligned with the UK I can't see the RN or Westminster being happy with Dublin having sub capacity. Also sustaining the training facilities would be hard for Ireland, maybe use the RN's in such a case? My ISOT makes use of the massive gap between the ISOT to even make it a thought, though I sense we're going off topic...

If you a credible navy and not one to catch naughty fishermen then subs would be a decent option and upsetting London in the context of armed neutrality is neither here nor there. Re ISOT, yes we were getting if topic.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

In 1987 the Isle of Man Volunteer Air Force stands down its fighter squadron due to lack of spare parts. It is the only user of the Supermarine Spiteful,

In 1990 it is reformed equipped with Hal Ajeets

 

[Barry Bull]

The initial post stated that the idea was to defend neutrality along the lines of Sweden. The threat at a guess would have been either side WW2 & then cold war.

Defend against whom though? Sweden was prepared to defend its neutrality given that it was a frontline state and have land borders with both blocs. The Swedes were worried that WP force might tried to go through its northern most territory to strike at Norway and NATO may try defend Norway by meeting any invading WP forces on Swedish soil.

There is simply no countries that can credibly threaten Ireland except UK.

 

[ArtosStark]

Defend against whom though? Sweden was prepared to defend its neutrality given that it was a frontline state and have land borders with both blocs. The Swedes were worried that WP force might tried to go through its northern most territory to strike at Norway and NATO may try defend Norway by meeting any invading WP forces on Swedish soil.

There is simply no countries that can credibly threaten Ireland except UK.

Don’t forget Case Green! Those devilish Nazi’s were a hair from invading Ireland Sealion style! 😉

 

[sparky42]

Defend against whom though? Sweden was prepared to defend its neutrality given that it was a frontline state and have land borders with both blocs. The Swedes were worried that WP force might tried to go through its northern most territory to strike at Norway and NATO may try defend Norway by meeting any invading WP forces on Swedish soil.

There is simply no countries that can credibly threaten Ireland except UK.

Hence why Finance has always taken the view that defence spending isn’t worth it.

Don’t forget Case Green! Those devilish Nazi’s were a hair from invading Ireland Sealion style! 😉

Wasn’t just the Nazis, Churchill was all on for invading at least the Treaty Ports, thankfully saner heads prevailed.

Though I suppose that could be a POD? Instead of working with Dublin after the refusal of the Chamberlain offer in 1940, the UK does seize the Ports for the duration with minimal resistance by the few air craft and MTBs the DF have, this means the UK have to build up the air defences and that Cork becomes a major target for Luftwaffe attacks as well. Meanwhile Dev is forced to confront the reality that neutrality only counts if you can enforce it and that relations with the UK are even worse than OTL. Post Pearl Harbour the USAF/USN take over the duties at the Ports (having based there in WW1), meaning somewhat better engagement with Dublin.

Post WW2, political and public demands that Ireland should be able to defend itself means actual spending on defence with surplus US equipment being bought?

 

[Hammerbolt]

There is simply no countries that can credibly threaten Ireland except UK.

Vikings.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

The FGA9 was a fighter bomber, they were still going to be the backbone of RAFG into the early 70's for BAI/CAS as a replacement for Canberra's.

I'm not sure that I've interpreted that properly, but here goes.

It's perfectly true that the Hunter FGA9 was a fighter-bomber. AIUI many people were surprised that the RAF selected this aircraft, because they had expected the Folland Gnat to be selected.

I don't see why the Fairey Delta II couldn't be developed into a fighter-bomber analogous to the Mirage IIIE or a pure ground attack version analogous to the Mirage V. I think it could do the Hunter FGA9/FR10s role for the RAF as well or better and in addition to competing against the Mirage III and V it would have been bought by some of the air forces that bought the Freedom Fighter and Starfighter IOTL.

TTL I think the plan in the first half of the 1960s would still be for TSR2 to replace the Canberra in the second half of the 1960s and for the P.1154 RAF to come into service in the early 1970s. Though what would actually happen is that Buccaneer would replace Canberra in RAFG as IOTL. However, instead of the F-4M initially going into service with RAFG and No. 38 Group in the ground attack and reconnaissance roles before replacing the Lightning in the interceptor squadrons...

Westland (assuming that Fairey still becomes part of that firm ITTL) proposes a Super Fairey Delta II with a Spey engine replacing the Avon and new avionics as an alternative to the Sepecat Jaguar and BAC P.45 to meet ASR 362. This aircraft is selected instead of the Jaguar and enters service with the RAF in the early 1970s replacing the Avon powered Faiery Delta IIs and the F-4M Phantoms go straight to the RAF's interceptor squadrons. France either does the Jaguar as an all-French project ITTL or buys more Mirage Vs or more Mirage F-1s. All the Jaguar export customers of OTL buy the "Spey Fairey Delta" ITTL and it's also sold to some of the countries that bought the Mirage F-1 and Tiger II IOTL.

 

[Mike D]

ROYAL AIR FORCE ORDER OF BATTLE
1st June 1995

​

1 (UK Defence) Group

3x fighter sqn (12x Panavia Tornado F.3)
1x anti-shipping sqn (12x Panavia Tornado GR.1B)
1x AEW sqn (8x Vickers Cocidius AEW.2₁)
1x AAR sqn (8x Vickers Coventina K.3₂)
4x MPA sqn (8x BAE Nimrod MR.2)

2 (Training) Group

Operational Combat Training Wing₃ (8x McDonnell-Douglas F-15C, 8x Saab JAS-39 Gripen, 8x Douglas A-4M)
Operational Conversion Units for all fast jets and helicopters in RAF inventory.
Basic flying training units equipped with Scottish Aviation Bulldog T.1 and Short Tucano T.1.
Multi-engine conversion units equipped with Scottish Aviation Jetstream T.1
Navigational training unit equipped with BAE Dominie T.1
Jet conversion units equipped with BAE Hawk T.1
Helicopter training units equipped with Eurocopter Squirrel HT.1 and Bell Griffin HT.1

3 (Expeditionary) and 4 (Expeditionary) Groups

3x fighter sqn (12x Panavia Tornado F.3)
4x strike sqn (12x Panavia Tornado GR.1A)
2x attack sqn (12x BAE Harrier FGR.7)
1x SEAD sqn (12x Panavia Tornado EF.5₄)
1x AEW flight (4x Vickers Cocidius AEW.2)
1x AAR sqn (8x Vickers Coventina K.3)
1x transport sqn (8x Short Belfast C.2₅)
1x heavy rotary transport sqn (12x Westland Mercia HC.3₆)
1x rotary transport sqn (12x Aerospatiale Puma HC.1)
1x RAF Regiment Force Protection Wing (1x light infantry bn, 1x light armour sqn, 1x AD sqn)

5 (Expeditionary) and 6 (Expeditionary) Groups

3x fighter sqn (12x Panavia Tornado F.3)
4x strike sqn (12x Panavia Tornado GR.1A)
2x attack sqn (12x SEPECAT Jaguar GR.1A)
1x SEAD sqn (12x Panavia Tornado EF.5)
1x AEW flight (4x Vickers Cocidius AEW.2)
1x AAR sqn (8x Vickers Coventina K.3)
1x transport sqn (8x Short Belfast C.2)
1x heavy rotary transport sqn (12x Westland Mercia HC.3)
1x rotary transport sqn (12x Aerospatiale Puma HC.1)
1x RAF Regiment Force Protection Wing (1x light infantry bn, 1x light armour sqn, 1x AD sqn)

102 (Bomber) Wing

4x bomber sqn (8x BAE Taranis B.2₇)
1x AAR sqn (8x Vickers Coventina K.3)

106 (Airborne Forces Support) Wing

2x transport sqn (8x Short Belfast C.2)
2x heavy rotary transport sqn (12x Westland Mercia HC.3)
2x rotary transport sqn (12x Aerospatiale Puma HC.1)

RAFNI

1x heavy rotary transport flight (4x Westland Mercia HC.3)
2x rotary transport sqn (12x Westland Wessex HC.2)
1x rotary transport sqn (12x Aerospatiale Puma HC.1)

RAF Gibraltar

1x fighter flight (4x Panavia Tornado F.3)
1x anti shipping flight (4x Panavia Tornado GR.1B)
1x MPA flight (4x BAE Nimrod MR.2)

RAF Falkland Islands

1x fighter flight (4x Panavia Tornado F.3)
1x attack flight (4x SEPECAT Jaguar GR.1A)
1x MPA flight (4x BAE Nimrod MR.2)
1x AAR flight (2x Vickers Coventina K.3)
1x transport flight (4x Short Belfast C.2)
1x heavy rotary transport flight (4x Westland Mercia HC.3)
1x rotary transport flight (4x Westland Wessex HC.2)

RAF Singapore₈

1x fighter sqn (12x Panavia Tornado F.3)
1x MPA flight (4x BAE Nimrod MR.2)
1x AEW flight (4x Vickers Cocidius AEW.2)
1x AAR flight (2x Vickers Coventina K.3)
1x transport flight (4x Short Belfast C.2)

RAF Cyprus

1x fighter flight (4x Panavia Tornado F.3)
1x MPA flight (4x BAE Nimrod MR.2)
1x AAR flight (2x Vickers Coventina K.3)
1x transport flight (4x Short Belfast C.2)
1x rotary transport flight (4x Westland Wessex HC.2)


₁ - Vickers Cocidius - AEW based on the Vickers VC-10, named for a Celtic God of war and the hunt
₂ - Vickers Coventina – Tanker based on the Vickers VC-10, named for a Celtic Goddess of wells and springs.
₃ - Operational Combat Training Wing – A small unit of aircraft leased from allied or neutral nations used to train Royal Navy, Royal Air Force, Commonwealth and other allied pilots in air combat techniques.
₄ - Panavia Tornado EF.5 – Specialist electronic warfare variant based on the Tornado F.3, equipped with anti-radiation weapons to target enemy radar and air defence systems plus various pods containing equipment to jam, spoof and otherwise electronically attack enemy equipment.
₅ - Short Belfast C.2 – A development of the original Short Belfast, rebuilt with different wings and engines to improve performance.
₆ - Westland Mercia HC.3 – A development of the Fairey Rotordyne, roughly equivalent in size to the US Chinook helicopter.
₇ - BAE Taranis B.2 – A supersonic bomber developed from the Concorde II supersonic airliner, capable of carrying almost any British or NATO air to ground weapon, including nuclear weapons.
₈ - RAF Singapore – A joint Commonwealth facility based at Tengah air base, housing aircraft and personnel from the Royal Air Force, Royal Australian Air Force, Royal New Zealand Air Force as well as the Royal Singapore Air Force.


(From the same timeline the carrier designs in the Alternate Warships thread came from)

 

[Kurt_Steiner]

Perhaps some F-5 Tigers would be a nice option for the Operational Combat Trainning Wing

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Wasn’t just the Nazis, Churchill was all on for invading at least the Treaty Ports, thankfully saner heads prevailed.

I remember reading that the Americans thought about invading as well.

 

[Mike D]

Perhaps some F-5 Tigers would be a nice option for the Operational Combat Trainning Wing

They were another option for the "light fighter" option, although I went for the A-4 instead. They're supposed to replicate any realistic opponents so you have a top end fighter (they probably started with the Phantom before transitioning to the F-15), a mid level (probably started with the Mirage III or similar before moving on to the Gripen) and for the lightweight aircraft it came down to a coin toss between the F-5 and the A-4. I'll have to read up on end of service dates to see if the A-4 would be likely to be replaced by the F-5 before the 2000 or 2005 version gets written.

They are missing a bomber to replicate Soviet/Russian aircraft like the Backfire but that seemed like an overly expensive step (I dread to think what it would cost to lease four B1s (if the US even had them to spare) or Mirage IVs) but I suppose they could always use the Taranis for that role if they needed to.

 

[Kurt_Steiner]

They were another option for the "light fighter" option, although I went for the A-4 instead. They're supposed to replicate any realistic opponents so you have a top end fighter (they probably started with the Phantom before transitioning to the F-15), a mid level (probably started with the Mirage III or similar before moving on to the Gripen) and for the lightweight aircraft it came down to a coin toss between the F-5 and the A-4. I'll have to read up on end of service dates to see if the A-4 would be likely to be replaced by the F-5 before the 2000 or 2005 version gets written.

They are missing a bomber to replicate Soviet/Russian aircraft like the Backfire but that seemed like an overly expensive step (I dread to think what it would cost to lease four B1s (if the US even had them to spare) or Mirage IVs) but I suppose they could always use the Taranis for that role if they needed to.

I'm a huge fan of the good ol' Skyhawk, but I think that, by 1995, its time is past and gone, so the F-5 would be a good replacement.

About the British Backfire. Dunno why, if the Taranis is a bit like his Concorde brother, he must be a hell of a fuel drinker. I would have thought that the RAF could have some local version (or licensed) of the B1s (named the Lancaster II),

 

[Mike D]

I'm a huge fan of the good ol' Skyhawk, but I think that, by 1995, its time is past and gone, so the F-5 would be a good replacement.

About the British Backfire. Dunno why, if the Taranis is a bit like his Concorde brother, he must be a hell of a fuel drinker. I would have thought that the RAF could have some local version (or licensed) of the B1s (named the Lancaster II),

Taranis is supposed to be based on a supposed Concorde II (I remember reading that there had been a concept for one back in the 1980s but I can't find it again right now). Better engines (possibly allowing supercruise? I'm not sure if that was possible back then) and improvements to the design mean she's not as thirsty as her older auntie so she's cheaper to run and has better range than the OG Concorde.

My timeline has the UK doing better (and has a lot more Commonwealth cooperation) which means there's less need to import aircraft from the US (because the UK government doesn't bend the UK aircraft industry over and do it roughly up the wrong 'un) so having a British designed and built bomber over licence building the American equivalent is just supposed to be symbolic of the UK's slightly better economy and place in the world - the UK isn't a superpower in my world and is still financially behind the US but they're better off than we really were and that means there's slightly more, slightly better toys and they're more likely to be British toys.

I will bear the A-4/F-5 swap in mind for the next version - I'm working on the story of the BAE Typhoon at the minute for my next post then it'll be either a 2000 or 2005 update for the RAF.

 

[sparky42]

I remember reading that the Americans thought about invading as well.

Never heard that one tbh.

 

[Pangur]

Never heard that one tbh.

Its true, In the months before D-day they wanted to do just that, can't recall where the British stood on the matter however the Canadian Gov talked them out of it