Fictional inventory of modern airforces

Time of sales 1960 to 1980
The F-5 and F-104 get a hammering.

However, many of them were through MDAP and Congress might not like American money being spent on British aeroplanes.

Before anyone mentions the AV-8A Harrier, that was bought because there was no American equivalent. More pertinent examples would be the Centurion tanks and Hawker Hunters purchased under MDAP in the 1950s. However, AIUI that was because the American tank and aircraft factories were building to capacity.
 
IRISH SELF DEFENSE AIR FORCE (ISDF/AF) - a timeline

Set up in 1924 the ISDF/AF is the air defense air of the Irish Armed Forces. It was quickly accepted that like other neutral nations such as Sweden and Switzerland a strong air force would be needed to enforce the republics neutrality. With this in mind a large expansion of the original Irish Air Corp would take place with a onus on getting aircraft from non-aligned countries if possible.
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That’s more than ambitious for Ireland tbh, there just wouldn’t be the economy to sustain such a build up, nor the political/military will. Also you’d pretty much have to replace the entire leadership of the DF and Government to get such a view on air power. Then you get into the pack of infrastructure and industrial/educational capacity for the level of growth you are suggesting.
 
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Correct. I was basing the population of Ireland at 60% of Sweden . . . not 40%

Now edited!

Much obliged!
It’s not just population, there’s also economics, with Ireland lagging massively until the 90s, the spend you are suggesting just isn’t economically sustainable for OTL Ireland even with a reasonable defence budget.
 
Countries with far stronger economies have difficulty maintaing a strong airforce.......Ireland doesn't have the capability for that large of an airforce without screwing over massive portions of their economy
 
There's no way Ireland could afford the size of Air Force suggested. Before the mid 90's and all the EEC investments Ireland was a relatively poor rural backwater dependent on agricultural exports.
 

Pangur

Donor
It’s not just population, there’s also economics, with Ireland lagging massively until the 90s, the spend you are suggesting just isn’t economically sustainable for OTL Ireland even with a reasonable defence budget.
When I first read the post I assumed because its fictional the matter of money could be ignored to a degree. Manpower is a very different matter and the numbers become to hi IMHO if for no other reason I would see a nation that could afford an airforce that size and capability would be more navy focused and hence not only less money for aircraft but some of the said purchases would have to have marine capabilities . I did like what i read and its not like as if I had not wondered about a far larger Irish AF, Army and navy
 
When I first read the post I assumed because its fictional the matter of money could be ignored to a degree. Manpower is a very different matter and the numbers become to hi IMHO if for no other reason I would see a nation that could afford an airforce that size and capability would be more navy focused and hence not only less money for aircraft but some of the said purchases would have to have marine capabilities . I did like what i read and its not like as if I had not wondered about a far larger Irish AF, Army and navy

The biggest problem is not money, but lack of a credible threat that justify the existence of such large IDF.
 

Pangur

Donor
The biggest problem is not money, but lack of a credible threat that justify the existence of such large IDF.
The initial post stated that the idea was to defend neutrality along the lines of Sweden. The threat at a guess would have been either side WW2 & then cold war.
 
The initial post stated that the idea was to defend neutrality along the lines of Sweden. The threat at a guess would have been either side WW2 & then cold war.
Indeed, though as you said for a force like that, Ireland would have to be taking an aggressive position on neutrality which suggests a much larger navy as well which would pull the AC into more maritime patrol operations which is missing to a great degree in the list. You are also most likely talking about a much enlarged helicopter demand from both the navy and army in such case again eating into the funding.

I’ve a PDF somewhere of a doctoral dissertation on the AC from 1922 to ‘45, the challenges to get anything like this list would be huge, hell even the OTL plans and ambitions of that period never happened, add in that like most elements of defence in the period we had a “complicated“ relationship with the main supplier (the UK) and everyone pretty much stopped supplying us for the duration of the war.
 
Countries with far stronger economies have difficulty maintaing a strong airforce.......Ireland doesn't have the capability for that large of an airforce without screwing over massive portions of their economy
Also the idea of having such a wide range of aircraft would be a huge issue for most nations the size of Ireland, at best it would be much more limited in scope.
 
It's more likely that the RAF would buy the twin-engine EE Lightning AND the single-engine Fairey Delta 2.

The latter would have been built instead of the (IIRC) 160 Hunter F6s that were rebuilt to FGA9 and FR10 standard.
The FGA9 was a fighter bomber, they were still going to be the backbone of RAFG into the early 70's for BAI/CAS as a replacement for Canberra's.
 
I did like what i read and its not like as if I had not wondered about a far larger Irish AF, Army and navy
The original "plans" by GHQ in the period had intentions for full 4 brigades for the Army, a Navy with a squadron of Destroyers and a light Cruiser, and an AC of up to 10 squadrons (mix between fighters, medium bombers/reconnaissance, coastal patrol and maybe army liaison) but Finance was never going to allow any of that, holding the till today that defence isn't worth spending on. During the lead up to the war and with discussions with the UK the numbers bounced around between 2-5 fighter squadrons, 2 medium bomber/reconnaissance squadrons and an amphibious patrol squadron, all of which had some minor effort put in and then abandoned.

My rough suggestion:
1930's
2 Squadrons of Gladiators with spares
2 Squadrons of Ansons (the officer in charge of procurement had a love for them)
1 Squadron of Walrus (the UK pushed hard for that even though they were destroyed operating on the West Coast).
Appropriate trainers for same and the proposed dual use investment in regional airports for the AC.

1940's
Replace the Gladiators with Hurricanes Mk1's as you can get them off the UK (which was a pain even though they had been replaced in service), and try to build up to 3 squadrons with spares (a major issue at all times for the AC)
Replace the Ansons with whatever type could be sourced either from the US or UK for the job, and again try to build up to 3 squadrons dropping the Walrus's due to damage/losses.

Post War, see what can be picked up cheap from the RAF and get enough spares to sustain them into the 50's, after which it gets tricky when you consider the increasing costs for airframes and the likely push from Finance to not spend.
 
Considering the Uk vs Ireland politics of the 1930s, wouldn't it be more realistic to get some french or US-built aircraft, at least for fighters? Matching the Gladiator's age, Ireland could go for the Boeing P-26 (or it's unsold sucessor the P-29); from France, the Dewoitine D.500. Or even the excelent polish PZL P.11.
 
Considering the Uk vs Ireland politics of the 1930s, wouldn't it be more realistic to get some french or US-built aircraft, at least for fighters? Matching the Gladiator's age, Ireland could go for the Boeing P-26 (or it's unsold sucessor the P-29); from France, the Dewoitine D.500. Or even the excelent polish PZL P.11.
As ever with the Anglo-Irish relationship its "complicated" even then. While Dev and the Cabinet were to varying degrees hostile to London, at the civil service and military level there was a better relationship (even though for the most part the Irish were out of their depth in areas), and very much took the lead from the CID in what Ireland needed hence the Walrus's. The CID suggested 19 Blenheim's be purchased through the Air Ministry for example (but given Dev's position on the Commonwealth we didn't use that offer), along with a squadron of flying boats and around 19 fighters (first suggesting Hurricanes or Spitfires but downgrading it to Gladiators due to costs) as of 1938. The AC OTL also had ex RAF officers on and off in service and the officer that basically made the orders didn't in OTL look outside of the UK for aircraft. Then you get into supply issues, the UK manufacturers would be the closet and most easily accessible for the Irish particularly if you were talking about an enlarged AC.

A larger AC requires so many butterflies that it's hard to say which way things could go tbh/
 
Agreed.

But just for simplicity I based the numbers and types on the Royal Swedish air force . . . and it was on the Wikipedia so some of the numbers and types might be a bit off. Feel free anyone on here to change the types in service or improve my original post.

Much obliged!
Again though the Swedes throughout the 20th century have a far bigger budget profile to play with, along with aspects like Conscription which just isn't going to happen in Ireland. There's also as I've said the influence of the UK, with a lot of the equipment/doctrine being influenced by them. There's also different aspects in play, if the Troubles kicks off OTL, there's going to be more pressure for helicopter purchases, if the Republic follows OTL in UN operations will there be more demand for transport aircraft or helicopters for said deployments? Surveillance aircraft for both at home and on deployments...
Agreed.

That's why I'm thinking about doing a IDF/N (Irish Navy) on the 'Alternate Warships' thread. Unlike the UK I was thinking of putting their patrol aircraft in with the naval service, US Navy style.

Much obliged!
Very unlikely to happen, remember the NS is the youngest service and matches the AC for least loved and even worse isn't even in Dublin! Even assuming a stronger neutrality position the AC would long have had the Patrol duties and would be loath to give them up to anyone else. The NS only came into being after WW2, and again even if you use the earlier POD'S to create one, they would be hard pressed just to build up a navy, let alone play with aircraft.
 
A larger AC requires so many butterflies that it's hard to say which way things could go tbh/

...1938? Ok I thought we were starting earlier in the 1930s.

My own country (Portugal) tried to get either Hurricanes or Spits from the UK around that time, but all we got were Gladiators... cause politics...
 
...1938? Ok I thought we were starting earlier in the 1930s.

My own country (Portugal) tried to get either Hurricanes or Spits from the UK around that time, but all we got were Gladiators... cause politics...
Earlier than late 30's isn't really on the radar for the Irish Government tbh dealing with the aftermath of the Great Depression, despite the efforts of GHQ to try and even get the Government to set a policy on Defence. It's only post 1936 that efforts were made in OTL which as I've said had huge ambitions depending on who was proposing what, but aircraft aren't even sourced till 1937/38, more would have been bought but the War basically cut off that supply once we declared neutrality.

A different POD of course could be the RAF staying in Ireland post Treaty as the RN did at the Treaty Ports, strangely the Irish Provisional Government were actually open to this, but while the RN was represented at the Treaty Talks the RAF weren't. If they had stayed there would be more built up airbases and potentially defences while the DF might have a bit of a clue about what would be needed.
 
My own country (Portugal) tried to get either Hurricanes or Spits from the UK around that time, but all we got were Gladiators... cause politics...
FWIW insufficient production capacity to meet the demands of the RAF and the export market didn't help and neither did the outbreak of World War II.

The Hurricane and Spitfire export orders that were honoured used aircraft diverted from Air Ministry contracts.
 
FWIW insufficient production capacity to meet the demands of the RAF and the export market didn't help and neither did the outbreak of World War II.

The Hurricane and Spitfire export orders that were honoured used aircraft diverted from Air Ministry contracts.
Wonder if you had a POD of both better Anglo-Irish relations and a more active DF whether or not some additional industrial capacity could have been built up in Ireland at the time?
 
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