Fictional inventory of modern airforces

Khanzeer

Banned
The premise of this thread is that some of the aircraft mentioned here were considered ( or should have been ) by modern airforces ( post 1960) could have entered service but did not for various reasons

We look at what would be the effect if they did and whether this was a better or worse alternative

Also feel free to suggest if any particular aircraft could have been a good fit ( or not ) for a particular airforce and give your reason

e.g

BE Lightning or Mirage III /5 rather than F-104 for luftwaffe
A-7 corsair II and F-5A/E for Pak fizayah in place of F-16s in late 70s
The F-16A/B or F/A-18 in place of Tornado IDS program for luftwaffe
Mirage 4000 for Saudis rather than tornado ADV/F-15


..please feel free to comment and add more to the list
 
J-8II Finback with F-16 radar for China's PLAAF under the Peace Pearl program that was suspended due to Tiananmen Square in 1989.

Latest variant of the F-15E for the RAAF instead of the Super Hornet.
 
British Aircraft Corporation (later BAe) TSR2 Eagle enters RAF service. Australia buys the aircraft instead of F111, although the RAAF wants NA A-5 Vigilante.



Sydney Camm manages to convince the Air Ministry to order the P.1121 (as the Hurricane II) as a secondary strike fighter.
 
The premise of this thread is that some of the aircraft mentioned here were considered ( or should have been ) by modern airforces ( post 1960) could have entered service but did not for various reasons

We look at what would be the effect if they did and whether this was a better or worse alternative

Also feel free to suggest if any particular aircraft could have been a good fit ( or not ) for a particular airforce and give your reason

e.g

BE Lightning or Mirage III /5 rather than F-104 for luftwaffe
A-7 corsair II and F-5A/E for Pak fizayah in place of F-16s in late 70s
The F-16A/B or F/A-18 in place of Tornado IDS program for luftwaffe
Mirage 4000 for Saudis rather than tornado ADV/F-15


..please feel free to comment and add more to the list
One thing to note that air-superiority fighters is actually not the focus of most air forces. Fighter bombers for ground support is actually the mainstay for most airforce in the world.

The Luftwaffe wants a fighter-bomber with good avionics that allow low altitude accurate ground attack. F-104 is the only western aircraft available at material time.

The same goes for the reason choosing the Tornado IDS.
 
The Luftwaffe wants a fighter-bomber with good avionics that allow low altitude accurate ground attack. F-104 is the only western aircraft available at material time.
Douglas A-4?

Far better in air to ground role than the F-104, and it was no Widowmaker.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
Why did the luftwaffe not had a decent interceptor ? Even their F4F were w/o bvr weapons was this deliberate attempt to keep them subservient to RAF and USAF?
 
Douglas A-4?

Far better in air to ground role than the F-104, and it was no Widowmaker.
F-104G got better avionics for low alttitude nuclear bombig among all possible choices at material time. The A-4 E, the varient that has same level of avionics, only started delivery in 1962. The Germans were already training with F-104s.

Why did the luftwaffe not had a decent interceptor ? Even their F4F were w/o bvr weapons was this deliberate attempt to keep them subservient to RAF and USAF?
Because its main mission is ground support.

Interceptor focused air forces are actually a rarity in the world.
 
I'd say the Mirage 4000 is the best contender. Basically a French strike eagle. If it flew anything like the Mirage 2000 which had far superior FBW than just about anything else at the time it would have been a joy beyond comparison.



Thing was fully developed and ready but was cancelled because there wasn't much room for exporting it after the saudis favoured the tornado.
 
NATO doesn't cancel the NBMR-1 second gen fighter and chooses the Breguet Taon over the Fiat G-91 (how we can have everyone get the same aircraft instead of OTL clusterfuck is a mystery)

This aircraft was supposed to enter service in 1962 and was like a high subsonic small Jaguar with better avionics, greater carrying capacity and engines than the Gina. The French who tested it praised it's easy maintenance.

Having that over the F-5 that was not much better as a ground attack aircraft but didn't have proper avionics would have been interesting. There might have been no Jaguar tho.
 
F-104G got better avionics for low alttitude nuclear bombig among all possible choices at material time. The A-4 E, the varient that has same level of avionics, only started delivery in 1962.
It was still set for the nuclear role in 1958,with squadron service in 1960 for all weather toss bombing with the 'C' model,or A4D-2N as it was first known.

Had LABS and low level AN/APG-53A radar.

The US Army tried to get this model for a ground support aircraft in 1961, but ran onto that 'no fixed wing aircraft' restriction.
 
Anything will be of some interest for me, especially a more independent RAF using British sourced aircraft, avionics and weaponry. Especially in the 1960s era or its equivalent.

For an ATL Imperial Germany circa 1965 I have drafted an inventory of aircraft using contemporary USA and USSR types as approximations. I have not worked out the A-H fleet so I have no idea on the costs so it is a "wishlist" for now. And I have no designed aircraft. Combined I have them about half the strength of the Soviet-era Air Force with add-ons like Bulgaria and/or Romania. I have the force weighted to air superiority with a strong air defense component, think VVS and PVO, my logic is that enemy air forces are far closer and the main threat is medium bomber and tactical (fighter)-bomber delivered nuclear bombs. The Germans have a strong tactical to theater bomber element and retain close-air support but are truly fighter heavy. As a continental power with less need to reach far they look rather more like the Soviet Air Forces and should be about at least a half generation or full generation ahead of their Soviet opponents. I give the RAF a stronger position (combined with the Dominions they have a far better market share) and the USA is in my TL almost fully SAC with lip service to the remaining missions. I think a German Air Force (Deutsche Luftstreitkräfte) will be more Army-centric and better integrated, the Navy having retained its air arm should keep it from going fully independent, again more like Soviet practice, although I do not create a true PVO equal. The more I tinker with it the more I see Germany a sort of hybrid between Soviet and American aircraft, the ruggedness and innovation the Soviets often displayed with better technical gadgets we se the USA excel at, tactically the Air Force is more air interdiction than CAS, the CAS element filling beyond artillery and rotary wing not unlike USAF in practice yet better controlled like USMC

That is my conceptual layput, if you want more detail let me know.
 
It was still set for the nuclear role in 1958,with squadron service in 1960 for all weather toss bombing with the 'C' model,or A4D-2N as it was first known.

Had LABS and low level AN/APG-53A radar.

The US Army tried to get this model for a ground support aircraft in 1961, but ran onto that 'no fixed wing aircraft' restriction.
But A4 didn't get TACAN and other avionics until "E" model. Also, I don't think AN/APG-53A can do terrain following.
 
There's no chance of the RCAF ever getting the F-14 (even though it would have been an ideal replacement for our "Voodoo's"), unless the back door deal vis-a-vis Iran had worked out. Even so, the maintenance requirements would have been prohibitive for our buddy Trudeau...
Oh, 100% the only option would've been the deal with Iran, and I'm sure that they would've been first on the chopping block after the Cold War ended, sent off to the American boneyards. On the other hand, without the threat of Tomcat parts being stolen by Iran, they'd probably still be sitting in Arizona now.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
If soviets had a chance to steal and copy a western aircraft in the 60s which one will they most likely do ?

F-4 I think is too complex for them

Can we see a Soviet copy of Mirage III ? maybe with BVR missiles
 

WILDGEESE

Gone Fishin'
RAF 1960 to 2000

1960 - 1970

TSR Project scrapped. Buccaneers ordered instead.

60 plus SHORTS Belfast ordered to replace Hastings, Beverley etc

36 VC-10's are purchased to be converted into K-1 & 2 tankers replacing Valiant & Victors

1970 - 1980

Buccaneer fleet overhauled with TSR-2 weapon systems and electronics. Fleet expected to serve until late '80's

Due to performance issues with its wings, the RAF's fleet of Belfast C-1's are re-winged with the wings of the Lockheed C-141 Starliifter and called Belfast C-2's

1980 - 1990

SEPECAT Jaguar was scrapped before being developed into attack aircraft. Instead 200 x F-16K's will be license produced from 1980 on wards replacing the RAF's Hunters

Due to Tornado ADV variant not being developed 200 plus x F-15K's will be licence built from 1982 on wards to replace the RAF's Lightnings and F-4 Fhantom's

BAe Ninrod AEW not developed. 12 Boeing Sentry AEW's ordered to replace Shackleton fleet.

36 Lockheed KC-1011 tankers are ordered brand new from the manufacturer due to a discount so to keep the production line open. These are comparable with the USAF's KC-10 Extender

1990 - 2000

F-15K Strike Eagle license produced to replace the RAF's Buccaneers

C-17K's x 60 ordered to replace the RAF's fleet of Belfast C2's
 
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If soviets had a chance to steal and copy a western aircraft in the 60s which one will they most likely do ?

F-4 I think is too complex for them

Can we see a Soviet copy of Mirage III ? maybe with BVR missiles
It is less of a problem of technological disadvantage, but more that Soviet Air Force just operate different doctrinally.

One should noticed the Soviets were not keen on multi role aircrafts, that is related to their command and control doctrine.
 
Canadair doesn't piss off Northrop by exporting CF-116s. When Canada starts looking for new fighters in 1977 Northrop offers to partner with Canadair in on their F-5G program, which evolves into the CF-20 Tigershark.
 
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