Feudal Japan Ideas
- Thread starter Tredecimus
- Start date
That's... no. Just no. It didn't work that way. It doesn't work that way.
When we mean Nobunaga survives Honnoji are we including Nobutada as well? If so then the Oda are not going to be regulated to the side, and might even be close to unifying Japan.
The issue with any stronger Ikko Ikki is that there main bases of power were Ishiyama Honganji and the Kaga province, they would hard pressed by both other Buddhist sects and possible piss off too many daimyo.
On the inverse, where are people getting the idea of Catholic Southern Japan from? The only really powerful Christian Daimyo were the Otomo in north eastern Kyushu under Otomo Sorin, who basically got beaten by the Shimazu when they went on the warpath. Basically, there weren't any really strong Christian Daimyos to entertain such an idea. The problem with the Otomo even with a weak Shimazu is the Mori are right next door and recently overthrew the Catholic tolerating Ouchi.
The only possible candidate for another "powerful" Christan daimyo unlikely as it maybe, would be Ouchi Yoshinaga, only by virtue that Ouchi did tolerate Christianity. Considering Yoshinaga was both largely controlled by Harukata Sue, and probably disliked his Christian half brother Otomo Sorin, I doubt he would convert or be allowed to.
Japan
The issue with any stronger Ikko Ikki is that there main bases of power were Ishiyama Honganji and the Kaga province, they would hard pressed by both other Buddhist sects and possible piss off too many daimyo.
On the inverse, where are people getting the idea of Catholic Southern Japan from? The only really powerful Christian Daimyo were the Otomo in north eastern Kyushu under Otomo Sorin, who basically got beaten by the Shimazu when they went on the warpath. Basically, there weren't any really strong Christian Daimyos to entertain such an idea. The problem with the Otomo even with a weak Shimazu is the Mori are right next door and recently overthrew the Catholic tolerating Ouchi.
The only possible candidate for another "powerful" Christan daimyo unlikely as it maybe, would be Ouchi Yoshinaga, only by virtue that Ouchi did tolerate Christianity. Considering Yoshinaga was both largely controlled by Harukata Sue, and probably disliked his Christian half brother Otomo Sorin, I doubt he would convert or be allowed to.
Japan
Sorry but that not the case, Japan under the Tokugawa, went into isolation to preserve their own power, via stability. Basically the Tokugawa didn't unify the land via conquest as Hideyoshi did, but instead basically had a large system and allies and supporters who backed them at the Battle of Sekigahara against another large system of pro-Toyotomi allies.
The thing is if chaotic influences ran wild whats to stop the possibility of more conflict, especially considering that the Tokugawa punished and weakened clans that opposed them like the Mori and Shimazu. So to end isolationism and trying to weaken any opposition as much as possible had happened. This reared it's ugly head much later in the Boshin War when the Choshu and Satsuma domained lead by the Mori and Shimzau basically spearheaded the pro-emperor faction.
To be fair I already suggested an independent Christian Kyushu.
Sulemain
Banned
Shikoku and Kyushu under the control of an Otomo Dynasty "Kingdom of Japan" allied to Portugal, perhaps?
A trade Alliance with Spain would seem more logical, although I guess Portugal is a go.
And with the Christian Kingdom maintaining trade, they could probably keep up with European Advancements that could give them an edge over the Heathens to the North.
They could also annex the Kingdom of Tungning and the rest of Tiawan, maybe even try to compete with Europeans for the Pacific Islands?
Yes; I can see it now, the islands of Hawaii getting taken over by Japanese Christian fanatics.
Ok that is just too cool to not be doneSomebody get on this TL now!!
I've been looking for something to be the basis of a new TL, maybe I'll try.
buuut I'll need to read up on Japanese history a bit more, although I think I got most of it down.
It won't be a republic, but a weird kind of theocracy.
Kingdom of Japan, on the other hand, is interesting. Maybe the Imperial Court adapt the concept of Divine Right of Kings?
How would an Ikko-Ikki Theocracy work?
But then have where the Kingdom Takes third of Honshu with European support later and then has a civil war over Catholicism and Protestantism causing a schism resulting in two states::: The Kingdom of Japan, Located in Kyushu and other Islands. And then there's the Republic of Honshu, taking residence in Honshu taking a third of the Island. philosophically inspired by Europeans, mostly inspired by the British crown whom they are in an alliance with and trade with extensively.
As for another state; France tries to take up residence in Hokkaido and the Kuril Islands and establishes many trade posts on the Islands and populating them. After building forts on Hokkaido the native Ainu and small amount of Japanese residents rise in rebellion and declare independence, they then proceed to trade with recently built Russian ports on the Pacific and even into Alaska and even further down the coast with Mexico and Peru.
Not to be that guy, but neither an expanded Ikko Ikki or a Catholic Japanese kingdom in the European mold work. The Ikko Ikki where a mass movement, but where a Jodo Shinshu movement which is just one school of Pure land Buddhism. The Ikko Ikki are not the only game in town and would have to deal with other Buddhist schools and sects, and somehow manage to control and conquer eastern Japan with powerful clans and geography in their way. This is mind you, starting basically from one key monastery and one province.
As for any Catholic state, it's going to have the same bureaucratic traditions from China that Japan has, so any inspiration I would say is moot. I also would fail to see how the struggles of the reformation would play through a Christian Japan.
Basically, the Daimyo's were more clans that with their own vassals basically ran the provinces unopposed, so I can't see why any of the domestic power struggles or the need for weakening the religious authorities, that came with many of wars and upheavals during the reformation.
As for any Catholic state, it's going to have the same bureaucratic traditions from China that Japan has, so any inspiration I would say is moot. I also would fail to see how the struggles of the reformation would play through a Christian Japan.
Basically, the Daimyo's were more clans that with their own vassals basically ran the provinces unopposed, so I can't see why any of the domestic power struggles or the need for weakening the religious authorities, that came with many of wars and upheavals during the reformation.
In a semi-Christianized Japan, you'd have the Shinto-Buddhist old guard, and the Christian new guard. And the latter, once they have enough of a stable base, would divide between the ones who support keeping the original Catholicism and Spanish trade and the ones who support shifting into a more Anglican direction to break away from that. So the Reformation might reach there. Indeed, it already did IOTL, which is why the Tokugawas trusted the Dutch and English while expelling the Jesuits.
Basically, the clans would fight each other, supporting different causes and forming alliances under said causes to advance their own agendas, as IOTL. Look at the German princes who supported Luther to expel the monastic orders. A Japanese Christian state need not be Catholic.
You know, what were the chances of a European power establishing control over Hokkaido or the Islands north of it in the early to late sixteenth century? I mean if they could do it in Indonesia and the Philippines it doesn't seem like to much of a stretch to have a couple outposts there.
I'd imagine the Ainu and other local peoples would tolerate with it for protection against the Japanese to the south. And after a couple decades the native gene pool would have an introduction of European genes. Would this new culture have a siege mentality or would it be willing to cooperate with the Japanese to an extent?
I'm looking for something to make a new TL on and I'm thinking the Sengoku Jidai should be the setting so keep rolling out the ideas.
I'd imagine the Ainu and other local peoples would tolerate with it for protection against the Japanese to the south. And after a couple decades the native gene pool would have an introduction of European genes. Would this new culture have a siege mentality or would it be willing to cooperate with the Japanese to an extent?
I'm looking for something to make a new TL on and I'm thinking the Sengoku Jidai should be the setting so keep rolling out the ideas.
Unlike Indonesia and the Philippines, Hokkaido or Sakhalin are completely uninteresting in terms of commerce. What exactly is the commercial benefit of an enterprise in such an out-of-the-way place? The trade with Japan that is happening much more easily by the south? Or immensely long-distance trade for a few furs?
By Islands north of Japan I was thinking more in mind with the Kuril Islands that were excellent spots for whaling (of course being so far away from anything whaling would only be useful for the local area).
But the commercial benefit is that you have a fortified position that can allow you to trade with Asia without having to mess with the big boys in the lower pacific.
Think of it similarly to the idea behind British Hong Kong in that it's your own territory close to people you want to trade with. (Albeit there are still major differences between what I'm suggesting and Hong Kong.)
So, let's say a country like France or some third rate European power that can't possibly deal with the competition of the Dutch and can't bring enough Guns to deal with either the English or the Spanish (Maybe a Scandinavian country if you had an earlier POD in Europe that had it being more merchandising or say Denmark made Greenland a colony much earlier and tried to create a small but rich trading empire like the Netherlands. I dunno whatever feels good.) I wouldn't say Portugal because they were on good terms with the English (and treaty of Tordesillas and all, buuut it wouldn't take too much of a jump to come out and say it's bull. After all, catholics were still using crossbows against other catholics even though the papacy said no.)
At any rate lets say they establish these small colonies on the Island of Simushir and then had regular contact with the European homeland to get enough colonists to maintain a port then (assuming this is pre-isolation, or if Isolation is butterflied away, or even a French version of Commodore Perry busts the door open) they begin to trade with Japan and the rest of Eastern Asia, after profits begin to roll in they try and expand to more Islands and who knows.
Obviously this is a rough Idea and the Profits would probably be minimal, but Japanese luxury items were known be very popular in Europe so I wouldn't totally debunk it.
Russia is the most likely to colonize Hokkaido. But the chances are low.
Another idea. What if Yamamoto Kansuke didn't launched that suicidal charge at Kawanakajima and lived much longer?
Another idea. What if Yamamoto Kansuke didn't launched that suicidal charge at Kawanakajima and lived much longer?
Takeda Shingen could possibly have risen to greater heights, maybe even uniting Japan.
Maybe, but they were still up against Kenshin, and he wasn't making it easy for Kansuke when he was alive either.
And yes, that was on purpose. :3
Maybe, but they were still up against Kenshin, and he wasn't making it easy for Kansuke when he was alive either.
And yes, that was on purpose. :3
With the rise of Nobunaga, they won't be fighting each other for long.
And yes, Gackt Kenshin is best Kenshin.